Mass Effect 3 Ending Discussion (Massive UNMARKED Spoilers) - Page 22

Potts · 2012-03-16, 12:37 AM

But you're right, husks are basically mindless cyborg zombies.

Edit: And no, being indoctrinated does not give you reaper implants. That is something separate.

Jay · 2012-03-16, 12:55 AM

Yeah, getting Reaper implants is something you have done to you separately from indoctrination. Saren makes several references to upgrading himself.

Decius · 2012-03-16, 1:03 AM

Shepard is not indoctrinated. They say in the "Final Hours" they toyed with you losing control over Shepard to the Reapers, but they couldn't implement it due to engine restrictions. Putting it in without any information for the player except some Conspiracy-style overinterpreted engine glitches and plotholes (and there are many of those after all) is hardly Bioware's approach. Bioware is a lot, but not really very subtle with their main plots.
The twitter stuff is pretty much trolling for Marc Walters stated goal with the ending "LOTS OF SPECULATION FROM EVERYONE" (yes, he wrote it in caps).
TIM is of course Indoctrinated, Starchild himself said so and we saw him fighting it (if you talked him into suicide) like Saren. The intention was obviously that the Human Reaper remains indoctrinated him (as your squadmates even discuss in the Cerberus base), but then they put that stupid comic out that indoctrinated him long before even Saren, which completely clashes with ME 2.

Nim · 2012-03-16, 1:09 AM

If Shepard were indoctrinated the ending would be even worse. There are few things that need to be handled with more care than a bleak ending and one of them is a mindfuck ending. If you're going to screw with audience perceptions it needs to be done with extreme care, deliberation and execution.

If that's what they were going for, the massive number of plot holes make it a profoundly poor execution.

build me a star · 2012-03-16, 1:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Katara

Also, I'm curious if Bioware releases DLC that "fixes" or "enhances" the ending (maybe adds some new content) would anyone on here buy it?

Yes.

Nim · 2012-03-16, 1:35 AM

Who wouldn't? I mean, I've been on the hook for five years. It's evil, but I'll pay $15 for the ending that doesn't suck.

Darius Sontag · 2012-03-16, 1:44 AM

I would. I'd be mad about it, but after investing 100+ hours into the series $10.00 is a small price to pay for a decent ending.

build me a star · 2012-03-16, 1:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nim

If Shepard were indoctrinated the ending would be even worse. There are few things that need to be handled with more care than a bleak ending and one of them is a mindfuck ending. If you're going to screw with audience perceptions it needs to be done with extreme care, deliberation and execution.

If that's what they were going for, the massive number of plot holes make it a profoundly poor execution.

Also, this.

Decius · 2012-03-16, 2:30 AM

I find it unfortunate that ME 3 gets all those 1 star ratings on Amazon, because it is really undeserved. It is such an excellent game with a crappy ending, but that's 5 minutes out of 35-40h great hours.

Ten · 2012-03-16, 2:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Potts

Just because it's a video game, doesn't mean it can't do something deeper. When you take it at face value, it is retarded. When you dig and start putting all these pieces together, it starts to make sense. The more you dig, the more you see, the more and more sense it makes.

I don't think that a single person is saying this at all and this is kind of exactly the sort of condescension that is getting me really annoyed at the Indoctrination crowd.

Jay · 2012-03-16, 3:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Decius

I find it unfortunate that ME 3 gets all those 1 star ratings on Amazon, because it is really undeserved. It is such an excellent game with a crappy ending, but that's 5 minutes out of 35-40h great hours.

Those 5-10 minutes are so crucial though.

I mean, imagine if something really fucking weird and out of left field and lazy happened on the Salarian homeworld for 5-10 minutes. Or during the attack on the citadel. People would comment on it, say "Yeah that part was lame," and move on. It would be a very small scar on an otherwise gorgeous game.

But since the 5-10 minutes that happened were at the end, since it had all the emotional weight of the game behind it (and the emotions in ME3 run very fucking high indeed) they count immeasurably more. They are vital.

I still wouldn't call ME3 a one star game, but because of the ending, it takes a serious hit. That's part of why I'm so pissed. If ME3 were just a mediocre game with a horrible ending, I'd be less pissed. But it's WONDERFUL. Until the end, and that just ruins all the rest of the great stuff.

So much potential and epic (used in the right context! It is epic, it is an epic) storytelling, so much emotion, so many well done characters, so many poignant moments of loss, duty, sacrifice, hope, and all of it flushed down the drain at the last moment.

Such a fucking waste.

Necrosaro · 2012-03-16, 3:31 AM

Penny Arcade is being smart asses about this, as normal of course.

http://penny-arcade.com/comic/2012/03/16

Jay · 2012-03-16, 3:35 AM

That's actually still funny, but it also entirely misses the point of why folks are upset.

It'd be more accurate for them to draw a strip that consisted of one of the writers taking a dump, wiping his ass, then the used toilet paper says "ME3 Ending."

Jobrill · 2012-03-16, 3:44 AM

Oh hey, the PA guys are completely missing the point, AND using some of the oldest, tiredest arguments in the process. :/

Dean · 2012-03-16, 3:48 AM

Eh, it's the same as this joke:

- Link

Jay · 2012-03-16, 3:51 AM

I'm almost tempted to write Tycho and just ask "You know people'd be fine with a sad ending that makes sense, right?" but I think that's too much.

EDIT- Yes, there is my inner 12-year-old that wants the super happy ending. Chrono Trigger remains one of my favorite games because the ending is fucking beautiful and happy, IF you worked your ass off and did everybody's sidequests and beat Lavos at the right time.

I mean, look at this gem (if you've never played CT, massive spoilers duuuuuuh):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dS_7_paoz0w

The credits alone are gorgeous

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3Dsp2XZ-uE

That's some super happy shit. So yeah, it'd be pretty rad if Shepard got a parade and Wrex had a little baby and all that.

But more than anything I'd just like something that makes sense. Something that fucking feels like ME. this ending didn't feel like ME.

Laoke · 2012-03-16, 3:57 AM

Look. We've all come together as one on this forum to universally decry the ending. The fact that some guys that some of us respect, and that some of us think are a bag of cocks, disagree with that shouldn't affect us greatly.

We've proven beyond much shadow of a doubt that by just about any metric you use it's a poor ending. Revel in that feeling of shared disappointment.

It's about the only thing I've found that helps with the pain of trying to wrap your mind around the ending >.<

Although I will agree with one thing - the fact that the ending is so pitiful doesn't actually make it a crappy game. It's still a masterpiece. It's just not the best game I've ever played because it stumbled at the end.

Jay · 2012-03-16, 4:00 AM

I will say it's nice to know this isn't just a loud group of nutters on /v/.

I mean, everybody who isn't some kind of gaming publication/website that I've heard from loathes the ending.

Laoke · 2012-03-16, 4:09 AM

Nah dude. You might be taking it a biiiiiiiit too seriously, but honestly I was just as annoyed as you. Still am to some extent, but at the end of the day: I had an absolutely awesome time playing the game. The 50 or so hours I spent on it, the 2 days I took off work, staying up for 24 hours to finish it because I couldn't put the controller down once I got that far in - just amazing. A stunning example of what computer games can do so well. Evocative, capable of provoking emotion, decisions that matter - I'm unsure whether it counts as a interactive movie or an interactive novel TBH. And right to the end, you felt like Shepard was a badass from space with a pistol and a blue alien lover at her side.

Sure the ending sucked. We've established that. Time to let that go, and focus on what it did so well.

Which to be honest, was absolutely everything else.

Laoke · 2012-03-16, 4:11 AM

Although I will say this much in response to Penny Arcade.

Reapers turning into Ice-Cream Sundaes actually makes just about as much sense as the 'real' ending.

Decius · 2012-03-16, 4:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jobrill

Oh hey, the PA guys are completely missing the point, AND using some of the oldest, tiredest arguments in the process. :/

Nearly all gaming "journalists" seem to miss what people have a problem with. It's not that people want a good ending (although it would have been a decent idea to include at least a bittersweet one if you worked your ass off for that stupid EMS points that do basically nothing now).
It's that they are all the same, all are independant from what you did the previous 120h and all shit completely over those previous 120h by simply changing everything.
You worked hard to keep Kelly Chambers alive? Though luck, she ends in the Reaper abattoir anyway. Or explodes with the Citadel. You cured the genophage to have Wrex and Eve lead the Krogan into a more peacful future? Who cares, Wrex is on Earth, the Krogan's leaderless, but they are confined to their cluster anyway. You made peace between Geth and Quarians? Though luck, the Quarians will starve in the Sol system and the Geth might maybe destroyed (Control ending). The other Quarians on Rannoch will probably die with the larger part of the fleet (and thus resources) on the other side of the galaxy and suddenly all their new Geth friends dead. You can't argue the whole game is a denouement when the last 5 minutes make the whole denouement moot.

An absolutely amazing game, but a complete fumble 2 steps before the finishing line.

Default_Messiah · 2012-03-16, 4:20 AM

I imagine lots of people have anyway. It doesn't really matter, since their M.O. is to basically warp stuff to absurdity, since ridiculous imagery and turns of phrase is kind of their thing.

The thing is, is that the player should want to get a 'happy ending'. I mean, the player isn't the author. I'm not even sure I would describe it as co-authorship. Rather, the player is the participant in a semi-adversial role with the author(s).

It's the player/G.M. situation, where if the player is invested, they should be struggling, making choices they feel they/their character would. They should share their character's goals, and the G.M. should restrict access to achieving those goals, untill they've taken the steps necerssary. The G.M./game author isn't your enemy, but they do take on the roles of all the forces assembled against you, whether those are natural, societal, adversarial, or so on.

I'm starting to ramble.

I guess what I'm getting at is yearning for a 'good' ending is not bad and doesn't make you dumb, or entitled necessarially. Yearning is what makes tragedy work, if a bad ending was just as optimal as a good one, what power would Othello have? That's a play where (allegedly) audience members would open fire on the actors playing Iago. The important thing is being able to accept tragedy or bittersweetness in stories when it has 'played fair'. Othello works because it is a slow build up, and has a sense of inevitability, like a train gathering speed. District 9 works because the lead character has learnt an important lesson, and while it's cost him everything he cared about, he's improved as a person, while still retaining the core of what made him sympathetic and worth caring about. It fits thematically. We yearn that things might have gone better (and hope that they will in the future), but at the same time, we accept that this is what it took for the character to improve, for the Aliens to get some kind of hope. It fits into the theme and narrative like a jigsaw piece.

I don't actually see the endings in Mass Effect as lazy or incompetent as I do just simply 'failed'. The reason District 9's ending is like a jigsaw piece is because the story was written. Then it was rewritten. Then it was rewritten some more. Each pass making the work flow more coherently. Each pass bringing up new insights, loosing the chaff, polishing what worked.

Video games are inherently hard to write for though. Ones with branching stories more so, because every choice needs to work thematically. Because deadlines are so tight, so much time is poured into them, and there are so many departments, a single change can have massive repurcussions. It's not just a matter of rewrites, or extra days shooting. It's a matter of many, many departments having to re-adjust accordingly. Games are a much more... 'brittle' storytelling medium. The potential rewards are exceedingly good, but if something breaks, it often breaks hard.

Default_Messiah · 2012-03-16, 4:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Decius

You can't argue the whole game is a denouement when the last 5 minutes make the whole denouement moot.

This is essentially my response to that too.

Laoke · 2012-03-16, 4:22 AM

Two things.

Firstly, am I evil for watching all the people posting in the main thread, rubbing my hands together and saying 'Soon, soon my pretty. You'll be joining us here. And your little robotic dog too!'?

Secondly, I'm -really- looking forward to Yhatzee reviewing it : )

Dean · 2012-03-16, 5:25 AM

Before I opened this thread, I had never heard the phrase "mind canon"
When I saw it in this thread, I thought, "that's pretty dumb, but you gotta do what you gotta do, I guess."
Now I'm reading you guys talking about it and I have to keep reminding myself that the story in salamangkero's link isn't what actually happened. That link is so satisfying that I've mindcanoned.

2012-03-16, 12:37 AM	#526
Potts The Littlest Elder God Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Lincoln, NE AKA: Aetochtlu	But you're right, husks are basically mindless cyborg zombies. Edit: And no, being indoctrinated does not give you reaper implants. That is something separate. __________________ http://steamcommunity.com/id/FO-Potts

2012-03-16, 12:55 AM	#527
Jay My Posting Face Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Korealand AKA: Emperor Dick Butt	Yeah, getting Reaper implants is something you have done to you separately from indoctrination. Saren makes several references to upgrading himself. __________________ I have a blog HERE I have some story things HERE I have a book HERE :I

2012-03-16, 1:03 AM	#528
Decius Lord of Lies Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: European Union	Shepard is not indoctrinated. They say in the "Final Hours" they toyed with you losing control over Shepard to the Reapers, but they couldn't implement it due to engine restrictions. Putting it in without any information for the player except some Conspiracy-style overinterpreted engine glitches and plotholes (and there are many of those after all) is hardly Bioware's approach. Bioware is a lot, but not really very subtle with their main plots. The twitter stuff is pretty much trolling for Marc Walters stated goal with the ending "LOTS OF SPECULATION FROM EVERYONE" (yes, he wrote it in caps). TIM is of course Indoctrinated, Starchild himself said so and we saw him fighting it (if you talked him into suicide) like Saren. The intention was obviously that the Human Reaper remains indoctrinated him (as your squadmates even discuss in the Cerberus base), but then they put that stupid comic out that indoctrinated him long before even Saren, which completely clashes with ME 2. Last edited by Decius; 2012-03-16 at 2:08 AM.

2012-03-16, 1:09 AM	#529
Nim says hello. Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Four and twenty blackbirds.	If Shepard were indoctrinated the ending would be even worse. There are few things that need to be handled with more care than a bleak ending and one of them is a mindfuck ending. If you're going to screw with audience perceptions it needs to be done with extreme care, deliberation and execution. If that's what they were going for, the massive number of plot holes make it a profoundly poor execution. __________________ You have 8 gold ingots. They are all the same weight, except for one that's marginally lighter. How can you find the lighter using a scale when you can only balance twice? Clue

2012-03-16, 1:35 AM	#531
Nim says hello. Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Four and twenty blackbirds.	Who wouldn't? I mean, I've been on the hook for five years. It's evil, but I'll pay $15 for the ending that doesn't suck. __________________ You have 8 gold ingots. They are all the same weight, except for one that's marginally lighter. How can you find the lighter using a scale when you can only balance twice? Clue

2012-03-16, 1:44 AM	#532
Darius Sontag Emperor of the Idiots Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Everywhere AKA: Shadoer	I would. I'd be mad about it, but after investing 100+ hours into the series $10.00 is a small price to pay for a decent ending. __________________

2012-03-16, 2:30 AM	#534
Decius Lord of Lies Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: European Union	I find it unfortunate that ME 3 gets all those 1 star ratings on Amazon, because it is really undeserved. It is such an excellent game with a crappy ending, but that's 5 minutes out of 35-40h great hours.

2012-03-16, 3:31 AM	#537
Necrosaro Always likes the villains Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Pennsylvania, USA	Penny Arcade is being smart asses about this, as normal of course. http://penny-arcade.com/comic/2012/03/16 __________________

2012-03-16, 3:35 AM	#538
Jay My Posting Face Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Korealand AKA: Emperor Dick Butt	That's actually still funny, but it also entirely misses the point of why folks are upset. It'd be more accurate for them to draw a strip that consisted of one of the writers taking a dump, wiping his ass, then the used toilet paper says "ME3 Ending." __________________ I have a blog HERE I have some story things HERE I have a book HERE :I

2012-03-16, 3:44 AM	#539
Jobrill Robofurry Join Date: Aug 2005	Oh hey, the PA guys are completely missing the point, AND using some of the oldest, tiredest arguments in the process. :/ __________________ - Link

2012-03-16, 3:48 AM	#540
Dean Gratification from doing Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: พัทยา AKA: Eupfhoria	Eh, it's the same as this joke: - Link

2012-03-16, 3:51 AM	#541
Jay My Posting Face Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Korealand AKA: Emperor Dick Butt	I'm almost tempted to write Tycho and just ask "You know people'd be fine with a sad ending that makes sense, right?" but I think that's too much. EDIT- Yes, there is my inner 12-year-old that wants the super happy ending. Chrono Trigger remains one of my favorite games because the ending is fucking beautiful and happy, IF you worked your ass off and did everybody's sidequests and beat Lavos at the right time. I mean, look at this gem (if you've never played CT, massive spoilers duuuuuuh): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dS_7_paoz0w The credits alone are gorgeous http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3Dsp2XZ-uE That's some super happy shit. So yeah, it'd be pretty rad if Shepard got a parade and Wrex had a little baby and all that. But more than anything I'd just like something that makes sense. Something that fucking feels like ME. this ending didn't feel like ME. __________________ I have a blog HERE I have some story things HERE I have a book HERE :I Last edited by Jay; 2012-03-16 at 3:58 AM.

2012-03-16, 3:57 AM	#542
Laoke Evil Little Ducker Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Wellington	Look. We've all come together as one on this forum to universally decry the ending. The fact that some guys that some of us respect, and that some of us think are a bag of cocks, disagree with that shouldn't affect us greatly. We've proven beyond much shadow of a doubt that by just about any metric you use it's a poor ending. Revel in that feeling of shared disappointment. It's about the only thing I've found that helps with the pain of trying to wrap your mind around the ending >.< Although I will agree with one thing - the fact that the ending is so pitiful doesn't actually make it a crappy game. It's still a masterpiece. It's just not the best game I've ever played because it stumbled at the end. __________________ "The dynamite crate has been glued shut, set on fire, humped, dropped about 6 feet and has been covered with dirt. I wait with awe to see what you're going to do to it next" - Me, Call of Cthulhu* Mafia game 2010*

2012-03-16, 4:00 AM	#543
Jay My Posting Face Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Korealand AKA: Emperor Dick Butt	I will say it's nice to know this isn't just a loud group of nutters on /v/. I mean, everybody who isn't some kind of gaming publication/website that I've heard from loathes the ending. __________________ I have a blog HERE I have some story things HERE I have a book HERE :I

2012-03-16, 4:09 AM	#544
Laoke Evil Little Ducker Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Wellington	Nah dude. You might be taking it a biiiiiiiit too seriously, but honestly I was just as annoyed as you. Still am to some extent, but at the end of the day: I had an absolutely awesome time playing the game. The 50 or so hours I spent on it, the 2 days I took off work, staying up for 24 hours to finish it because I couldn't put the controller down once I got that far in - just amazing. A stunning example of what computer games can do so well. Evocative, capable of provoking emotion, decisions that matter - I'm unsure whether it counts as a interactive movie or an interactive novel TBH. And right to the end, you felt like Shepard was a badass from space with a pistol and a blue alien lover at her side. Sure the ending sucked. We've established that. Time to let that go, and focus on what it did so well. Which to be honest, was absolutely everything else. __________________ "The dynamite crate has been glued shut, set on fire, humped, dropped about 6 feet and has been covered with dirt. I wait with awe to see what you're going to do to it next" - Me, Call of Cthulhu* Mafia game 2010*

2012-03-16, 4:11 AM	#545
Laoke Evil Little Ducker Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Wellington	Although I will say this much in response to Penny Arcade. Reapers turning into Ice-Cream Sundaes actually makes just about as much sense as the 'real' ending. __________________ "The dynamite crate has been glued shut, set on fire, humped, dropped about 6 feet and has been covered with dirt. I wait with awe to see what you're going to do to it next" - Me, Call of Cthulhu* Mafia game 2010*

2012-03-16, 4:20 AM	#547
Default_Messiah I'm firin' my incinerate! Join Date: Jun 2006	I imagine lots of people have anyway. It doesn't really matter, since their M.O. is to basically warp stuff to absurdity, since ridiculous imagery and turns of phrase is kind of their thing. The thing is, is that the player should want to get a 'happy ending'. I mean, the player isn't the author. I'm not even sure I would describe it as co-authorship. Rather, the player is the participant in a semi-adversial role with the author(s). It's the player/G.M. situation, where if the player is invested, they should be struggling, making choices they feel they/their character would. They should share their character's goals, and the G.M. should restrict access to achieving those goals, untill they've taken the steps necerssary. The G.M./game author isn't your enemy, but they do take on the roles of all the forces assembled against you, whether those are natural, societal, adversarial, or so on. I'm starting to ramble. I guess what I'm getting at is yearning for a 'good' ending is not bad and doesn't make you dumb, or entitled necessarially. Yearning is what makes tragedy work, if a bad ending was just as optimal as a good one, what power would Othello have? That's a play where (allegedly) audience members would open fire on the actors playing Iago. The important thing is being able to accept tragedy or bittersweetness in stories when it has 'played fair'. Othello works because it is a slow build up, and has a sense of inevitability, like a train gathering speed. District 9 works because the lead character has learnt an important lesson, and while it's cost him everything he cared about, he's improved as a person, while still retaining the core of what made him sympathetic and worth caring about. It fits thematically. We yearn that things might have gone better (and hope that they will in the future), but at the same time, we accept that this is what it took for the character to improve, for the Aliens to get some kind of hope. It fits into the theme and narrative like a jigsaw piece. I don't actually see the endings in Mass Effect as lazy or incompetent as I do just simply 'failed'. The reason District 9's ending is like a jigsaw piece is because the story was written. Then it was rewritten. Then it was rewritten some more. Each pass making the work flow more coherently. Each pass bringing up new insights, loosing the chaff, polishing what worked. Video games are inherently hard to write for though. Ones with branching stories more so, because every choice needs to work thematically. Because deadlines are so tight, so much time is poured into them, and there are so many departments, a single change can have massive repurcussions. It's not just a matter of rewrites, or extra days shooting. It's a matter of many, many departments having to re-adjust accordingly. Games are a much more... 'brittle' storytelling medium. The potential rewards are exceedingly good, but if something breaks, it often breaks hard. __________________ Reality Ajar ~ Society 6 Store

2012-03-16, 4:22 AM	#549
Laoke Evil Little Ducker Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Wellington	Two things. Firstly, am I evil for watching all the people posting in the main thread, rubbing my hands together and saying 'Soon, soon my pretty. You'll be joining us here. And your little robotic dog too!'? Secondly, I'm -really- looking forward to Yhatzee reviewing it : ) __________________ "The dynamite crate has been glued shut, set on fire, humped, dropped about 6 feet and has been covered with dirt. I wait with awe to see what you're going to do to it next" - Me, Call of Cthulhu* Mafia game 2010*

2012-03-16, 5:25 AM	#550
Dean Gratification from doing Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: พัทยา AKA: Eupfhoria	Before I opened this thread, I had never heard the phrase "mind canon" When I saw it in this thread, I thought, "that's pretty dumb, but you gotta do what you gotta do, I guess." Now I'm reading you guys talking about it and I have to keep reminding myself that the story in salamangkero's link isn't what actually happened. That link is so satisfying that I've mindcanoned.