[Blood Bowl: Legendary Edition] Forumopolis Bowl Season IV - GG Gitsnik's Gankers GG - Page 32

Archangel3d · 2012-03-28, 3:33 PM

That was probably one of the highlights of the last tourney for me. I'm never, ever firing Zombie Zara. Considering she's an Undead Slayer, ending up a zombie in an Undead team is the most fitting fate, narratively.

Sheldon · 2012-03-28, 3:34 PM

I didn't have fouling in mind when I posted my "Kill all the elves" quip. Well, I may have, but not to that degree.

Fouling Archangel3d's best catcher was perfect, mind you. That removes his greatest offensive threat at the cost of a lowly Lineorc. Textbook example of how to use fouls to your advantage right there. I approve.

However, the other fouls were self-defeating. As others have posted, to win against elves you need, need, need to have more players on the pitch than they do. Two or three or four more. At even numbers, they win. And once your own numbers get low enough, even a two player advantage won't always save you. 11 Orcs can get a touchdown against 8 elves. 4 elves can run circles around 6 orcs.

I hesitate to get into the details about fouling, because I don't want you all to get better and cleverer about it...

...

*takes a long sad look at his Gutter Runners*

Anyway, here it goes:

You need players to assist the fouler or the risk of getting send off will outweigh the odds of the foul target leaving the pitch for at the least the rest of the drive. The exact numbers of assists depends on the AV of the target and whether or not you have Dirty Player, but it's usually in the 2-4 player range.

That means fouling with one or two guys every turn won't work most of the time and hurt your team, in this game, more than the opponent. In the long run he'll have more headaches about it, but ruining the other coaches team for his next games doesn't help you.

It also means you have to commit a significant portion of your team to the foul, and if you have to go out of your way to chase down the foul target, you lose position on the board and your ballcarrier might be vulnerable. If you're caging against a net of elves, it's very easy to blitz the closest elf and gangfoul him pretty much right next to the cage, so I don't think that was what happened here. I mention it because it's a common mistake people make when they first discover fouling. They often foul excessively and forget about the ball while doing it.

Archangel3d posted good advice on how to grind down against elf screens. Blitz every turn, get in the face of as many elves as you can, make their dodges as hard as possible, force them into ever tighter space, force them into turnovers. And take your one square of cage movement every turn, it will take you into scoring range by turn 8 at the latest and if you've decimated the elves' numbers enough by that point and gotten them out of their prefered defensive shape by aggressively getting into their faces, your chances of getting the touchdown ain't half bad.

Strategic fouling can be part of that approach. But it can't be done blindly. Trading a Lino for a Catcher is good. On the other hand, trading a Lineorc for a Lineelf is bad, as is trading four of your guys for three of his.

Lastly, there's a way to tell if you're doing a too good job at fouling. If you're really good at fouling, you will be able to stop well before the end of the match. Because the opponent will be down to three players and retreating or he'll be down to three players and trying to put up a brave last stand but he's no real threat and you'd rather block and blitz the last survivors to maybe get SPP out of them.

Archangel3d · 2012-03-28, 4:01 PM

It's common for a team to have a dedicated Fouler, one who will try to pick up Sneaky Git as soon as possible. The main reason being is that being caught in a foul is like being Badly Hurt; you're out for the rest of the game, and since a bashy team relies on numbers, that's pretty huge. That dedicated fouler is the sacrificial player, one who's job is to get in, but the boot in on the most dangerous enemy player, and get Ejected.

The fact is, Fouling is very risky, (16-30% Ejection rate) but the past couple of games have been very good/lucky for you (a ton of Dead results, which is statistically improbable at best). But you can't use Fouling like a rocket launcher, laying about left and right and trying to whittle down the enemy numbers en-masse. You have to use it like a sniper rifle, with a single high-priority target.

In fact, I'd say that Fouling is a defensive tactic against faster teams, because their key positionals are your biggest threat. As an offensive tactic, it just doesn't work because the Net can be upheld with relatively few guys. Conversely, a fast team might try to put the boot in against a higher strength enemy, because of how many guys it would take to put him down in the first place.

Sheldon · 2012-03-28, 4:11 PM

Never making a Dirty Player part of my regular gameplan as Norse is one of my big regrets of last season.

The other is that I was so proud I had figured out a defensive set up that made the sidelines almost unassailable against fast teams that I used it against bashy teams too, when what I should have done is bait those into caging up the flanks by leaving them wide open at the start, not shutting them down.

Bassetking · 2012-03-28, 4:15 PM

I do appreciate the info. These last three games have been the first three blood-bowl games I've played. I'll definitely work on making use of Arch's Pincer strategy, and try to reassess the cost-effectiveness of my playstyle.

Striker · 2012-03-28, 4:16 PM

As I like to put it...use fouling as a scalpel, not a sledgehammer.

Sheldon · 2012-03-28, 4:18 PM

You've got games against Orcs and Undead coming up, don't you? Those will be whole different beasts from High Elves again, too.

And the Vamps should be fun with their anti-caging Hynpotic Gaze.

Archangel3d · 2012-03-28, 4:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bassetking

I do appreciate the info. These last three games have been the first three blood-bowl games I've played. I'll definitely work on making use of Arch's Pincer strategy, and try to reassess the cost-effectiveness of my playstyle.

Remember, the pincer is better against teams that you know will try to Dodge. It's not an easy thing to pull off in some situations, but it's hell on the guy trapped in the Orc sandwich.

Against another bashy team, they have Skills that let them deal with that kind of tactic (Block, Guard), so you're better off with the traditional approach of "throw everything into a big giant grind" because no one will be Dodging out of that.

[Edit] Bash vs Bash is where you learn to always always always go for the 2 Dice Block and avoid the 1DB like the ~~plague~~ nurgle rot.

Laoke · 2012-03-28, 5:30 PM

And in the Engines return match against the Ripping Lizards, 1 - 0 victory to the Engine. I kinda strategically removed the Skinks as part of the equation and after that it was as easy as my mom.

Writeups will happen once I can get my lazy arse in the mood to channel Neil and Bob once more : )

Sheldon · 2012-03-28, 6:04 PM

It's Bob and Neil.

Bob. and. Neil.

Laoke · 2012-03-28, 6:07 PM

No. Neil. And. Bob.

The order is important damnit! If you bob before kneeling you're going to miss the target!

Rutkowski · 2012-03-28, 6:49 PM

We got four elven teams in the league, right?

So why is an Orc on top of the throwing charts.

Sheldon · 2012-03-28, 7:22 PM

Because he wants to be beaten up and stuffed into a locker by his greenskinned teammates.

Mü0n · 2012-03-28, 7:33 PM

I'm near the end of the game with Rage and we have massive connection problems. What happens when the connection timer runs out?

Sheldon · 2012-03-28, 7:44 PM

If a player has crashed disconnected and it's not just a stutter during the loading screen, there's no way to reconnect to an ongoing match. Once the timer runs out the game is treated as if the DCed coach had conceded.

Then the admins can either validate the result as it is or reset the match to be played from scratch again. If the DC happens towards the end of the game, I'd suggest going with the result as it is, but it's nicer if both coaches agree on what to do.

Tebriel · 2012-03-28, 7:49 PM

Lemonheaded and I have had to bump our times once or twice, but tomorrow late evening is our current target.

Mü0n · 2012-03-28, 7:50 PM

at the end of the timer, I pressed the try again button and it worked. We're slowly making our last turns but at this point this slugishness has taken longer than the rest of the game. As of now, it's still in the connection in jeopardy status on the second to last turn.

edit - new dialog, now only 1 choice, quit the game.

I lost 0-2, give him the win, obviously.

A new death btw.

edit 2 - lol, it treats me as if I won and I got 90,000 in winnings

Sheldon · 2012-03-28, 8:00 PM

It treats you as winner because it treats the DCed coach as if he had conceded. Admins can fix the result to a 0-2 but that'd wipe all SPP gained in the real game, I think. Your and Rage's call.

Rage Incarnate · 2012-03-28, 8:07 PM

I would personally rather just replay it after I kick the shit out of my computer.
And fuck steam. Apparently because everyone's connection to steam is going crazy it decided that it would update a game while I'm playing, which it is supposed to pause and always has before. And since my computer is apparently a steaming pile of shit any more it basically seizes up when steam starts violating it with an update.
Nothing like lagging out on turn 16!

I hate everything.
Fuck dota2 for updating a day early aighiaid0ythgakgjutrj ojdsxyhmthokijdsfx

Sheldon · 2012-03-28, 8:10 PM

I can reset it right away. Mü0n, would you like to revive your fallen Norse warrior?

Mü0n · 2012-03-28, 8:12 PM

I'm up for a complete rematch as well, if he wants. It'll give me more practice against the best!

FFTimberwolf · 2012-03-28, 8:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rutkowski

We got four elven teams in the league, right?

So why is an Orc on top of the throwing charts.

Because they can only afford one player that can throw for a damn.

Sheldon · 2012-03-28, 8:23 PM

Reset the game. Repeat your murdering ways, the two of you!

Rutkowski · 2012-03-28, 8:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FFTimberwolf

Because they can only afford one player that can throw for a damn.

Except I got a blitzer with a pass too.

x2

Mü0n · 2012-03-28, 9:30 PM

rematch is over, Rage won it 1-0

2012-03-28, 4:01 PM	#778
Archangel3d Watch Your Mouth Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Montreal, Quebec	It's common for a team to have a dedicated Fouler, one who will try to pick up Sneaky Git as soon as possible. The main reason being is that being caught in a foul is like being Badly Hurt; you're out for the rest of the game, and since a bashy team relies on numbers, that's pretty huge. That dedicated fouler is the sacrificial player, one who's job is to get in, but the boot in on the most dangerous enemy player, and get Ejected. The fact is, Fouling is very risky, (16-30% Ejection rate) but the past couple of games have been very good/lucky for you (a ton of Dead results, which is statistically improbable at best). But you can't use Fouling like a rocket launcher, laying about left and right and trying to whittle down the enemy numbers en-masse. You have to use it like a sniper rifle, with a single high-priority target. In fact, I'd say that Fouling is a defensive tactic against faster teams, because their key positionals are your biggest threat. As an offensive tactic, it just doesn't work because the Net can be upheld with relatively few guys. Conversely, a fast team might try to put the boot in against a higher strength enemy, because of how many guys it would take to put him down in the first place. Last edited by Archangel3d; 2012-03-28 at 4:05 PM.

2012-03-28, 4:15 PM	#780
Bassetking Sophisticated Ignorance Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Dayton, Ohio	I do appreciate the info. These last three games have been the first three blood-bowl games I've played. I'll definitely work on making use of Arch's Pincer strategy, and try to reassess the cost-effectiveness of my playstyle. __________________ Write my curses in cursive FO 2011-2012 BQBL, 2011-2012 Survivor III, 2012 March Madness Brackets

2012-03-28, 4:16 PM	#781
Striker Insanity Inc. Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Vienna, Austria	As I like to put it...use fouling as a scalpel, not a sledgehammer. __________________

2012-03-28, 5:30 PM	#784
Laoke Evil Little Ducker Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Wellington	And in the Engines return match against the Ripping Lizards, 1 - 0 victory to the Engine. I kinda strategically removed the Skinks as part of the equation and after that it was as easy as my mom. Writeups will happen once I can get my lazy arse in the mood to channel Neil and Bob once more : ) __________________ "The dynamite crate has been glued shut, set on fire, humped, dropped about 6 feet and has been covered with dirt. I wait with awe to see what you're going to do to it next" - Me, Call of Cthulhu* Mafia game 2010*

2012-03-28, 6:07 PM	#786
Laoke Evil Little Ducker Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Wellington	No. Neil. And. Bob. The order is important damnit! If you bob before kneeling you're going to miss the target! __________________ "The dynamite crate has been glued shut, set on fire, humped, dropped about 6 feet and has been covered with dirt. I wait with awe to see what you're going to do to it next" - Me, Call of Cthulhu* Mafia game 2010*

2012-03-28, 3:33 PM	#776
Archangel3d Watch Your Mouth Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Montreal, Quebec	That was probably one of the highlights of the last tourney for me. I'm never, ever firing Zombie Zara. Considering she's an Undead Slayer, ending up a zombie in an Undead team is the most fitting fate, narratively.

2012-03-28, 3:34 PM	#777
Sheldon Still looking Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Rhine-Ruhr-Plex, AGS	I didn't have fouling in mind when I posted my "Kill all the elves" quip. Well, I may have, but not to that degree. Fouling Archangel3d's best catcher was perfect, mind you. That removes his greatest offensive threat at the cost of a lowly Lineorc. Textbook example of how to use fouls to your advantage right there. I approve. However, the other fouls were self-defeating. As others have posted, to win against elves you need, need, need to have more players on the pitch than they do. Two or three or four more. At even numbers, they win. And once your own numbers get low enough, even a two player advantage won't always save you. 11 Orcs can get a touchdown against 8 elves. 4 elves can run circles around 6 orcs. I hesitate to get into the details about fouling, because I don't want you all to get better and cleverer about it... ... takes a long sad look at his Gutter Runners Anyway, here it goes: You need players to assist the fouler or the risk of getting send off will outweigh the odds of the foul target leaving the pitch for at the least the rest of the drive. The exact numbers of assists depends on the AV of the target and whether or not you have Dirty Player, but it's usually in the 2-4 player range. That means fouling with one or two guys every turn won't work most of the time and hurt your team, in this game, more than the opponent. In the long run he'll have more headaches about it, but ruining the other coaches team for his next games doesn't help you. It also means you have to commit a significant portion of your team to the foul, and if you have to go out of your way to chase down the foul target, you lose position on the board and your ballcarrier might be vulnerable. If you're caging against a net of elves, it's very easy to blitz the closest elf and gangfoul him pretty much right next to the cage, so I don't think that was what happened here. I mention it because it's a common mistake people make when they first discover fouling. They often foul excessively and forget about the ball while doing it. Archangel3d posted good advice on how to grind down against elf screens. Blitz every turn, get in the face of as many elves as you can, make their dodges as hard as possible, force them into ever tighter space, force them into turnovers. And take your one square of cage movement every turn, it will take you into scoring range by turn 8 at the latest and if you've decimated the elves' numbers enough by that point and gotten them out of their prefered defensive shape by aggressively getting into their faces, your chances of getting the touchdown ain't half bad. Strategic fouling can be part of that approach. But it can't be done blindly. Trading a Lino for a Catcher is good. On the other hand, trading a Lineorc for a Lineelf is bad, as is trading four of your guys for three of his. Lastly, there's a way to tell if you're doing a too good job at fouling. If you're really good at fouling, you will be able to stop well before the end of the match. Because the opponent will be down to three players and retreating or he'll be down to three players and trying to put up a brave last stand but he's no real threat and you'd rather block and blitz the last survivors to maybe get SPP out of them.

2012-03-28, 4:11 PM	#779
Sheldon Still looking Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Rhine-Ruhr-Plex, AGS	Never making a Dirty Player part of my regular gameplan as Norse is one of my big regrets of last season. The other is that I was so proud I had figured out a defensive set up that made the sidelines almost unassailable against fast teams that I used it against bashy teams too, when what I should have done is bait those into caging up the flanks by leaving them wide open at the start, not shutting them down.

2012-03-28, 4:18 PM	#782
Sheldon Still looking Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Rhine-Ruhr-Plex, AGS	You've got games against Orcs and Undead coming up, don't you? Those will be whole different beasts from High Elves again, too. And the Vamps should be fun with their anti-caging Hynpotic Gaze.

2012-03-28, 6:04 PM	#785
Sheldon Still looking Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Rhine-Ruhr-Plex, AGS	It's Bob and Neil. Bob. and. Neil.

2012-03-28, 6:49 PM	#787
Rutkowski Know nothing about posting Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Uppsala/Sweden AKA: Register, Entropy	We got four elven teams in the league, right? So why is an Orc on top of the throwing charts. __________________

2012-03-28, 7:22 PM	#788
Sheldon Still looking Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Rhine-Ruhr-Plex, AGS	Because he wants to be beaten up and stuffed into a locker by his greenskinned teammates.

2012-03-28, 7:33 PM	#789
Mü0n Herald of Dawn of War 2 Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: ▂▅▇██████▓▒░◕‿&#	I'm near the end of the game with Rage and we have massive connection problems. What happens when the connection timer runs out? __________________

2012-03-28, 7:44 PM	#790
Sheldon Still looking Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Rhine-Ruhr-Plex, AGS	If a player has crashed disconnected and it's not just a stutter during the loading screen, there's no way to reconnect to an ongoing match. Once the timer runs out the game is treated as if the DCed coach had conceded. Then the admins can either validate the result as it is or reset the match to be played from scratch again. If the DC happens towards the end of the game, I'd suggest going with the result as it is, but it's nicer if both coaches agree on what to do.

2012-03-28, 7:49 PM	#791
Tebriel Gantlemen Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Woodstock, GA	Lemonheaded and I have had to bump our times once or twice, but tomorrow late evening is our current target. __________________ "And lo, the day is coming and is now here when true worshippers will worship the Father in Spirit and in Truth. And without pants" -Book of No Pants, 4:23 #5 of 12 Steam ID: tebriel Gamespy ID: [FO]Tebriel Layton Avatar made by TheRyuuijnMike from gamefaqs.com

2012-03-28, 7:50 PM	#792
Mü0n Herald of Dawn of War 2 Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: ▂▅▇██████▓▒░◕‿&#	at the end of the timer, I pressed the try again button and it worked. We're slowly making our last turns but at this point this slugishness has taken longer than the rest of the game. As of now, it's still in the connection in jeopardy status on the second to last turn. edit - new dialog, now only 1 choice, quit the game. I lost 0-2, give him the win, obviously. A new death btw. edit 2 - lol, it treats me as if I won and I got 90,000 in winnings __________________ Last edited by Mü0n; 2012-03-28 at 7:52 PM.

2012-03-28, 8:00 PM	#793
Sheldon Still looking Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Rhine-Ruhr-Plex, AGS	It treats you as winner because it treats the DCed coach as if he had conceded. Admins can fix the result to a 0-2 but that'd wipe all SPP gained in the real game, I think. Your and Rage's call.

2012-03-28, 8:07 PM	#794
Rage Incarnate Plebian Join Date: Jun 2009	I would personally rather just replay it after I kick the shit out of my computer. And fuck steam. Apparently because everyone's connection to steam is going crazy it decided that it would update a game while I'm playing, which it is supposed to pause and always has before. And since my computer is apparently a steaming pile of shit any more it basically seizes up when steam starts violating it with an update. Nothing like lagging out on turn 16! I hate everything. Fuck dota2 for updating a day early aighiaid0ythgakgjutrj ojdsxyhmthokijdsfx

2012-03-28, 8:10 PM	#795
Sheldon Still looking Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Rhine-Ruhr-Plex, AGS	I can reset it right away. Mü0n, would you like to revive your fallen Norse warrior?

2012-03-28, 8:12 PM	#796
Mü0n Herald of Dawn of War 2 Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: ▂▅▇██████▓▒░◕‿&#	I'm up for a complete rematch as well, if he wants. It'll give me more practice against the best! __________________

2012-03-28, 8:23 PM	#798
Sheldon Still looking Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Rhine-Ruhr-Plex, AGS	Reset the game. Repeat your murdering ways, the two of you!

2012-03-28, 9:30 PM	#800
Mü0n Herald of Dawn of War 2 Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: ▂▅▇██████▓▒░◕‿&#	rematch is over, Rage won it 1-0 __________________