PROVINCIAL CRISIS IN THE LAND OF POUTINE

[ieya]

Originally Posted by Maxime

It's really not about the amount, but mostly about the principle. Close to 50% of the population support the protests, and many believe that a society has to pay for its education: not all education fields properly pay for its education costs, and we have to accept that.

Oh, certainly, I'd always expect that public universities will be subsidised by the state to some extent; I'd be surprised if even the increased tuition fees covered anything like the entire cost of the university space. But it doesn't feel unreasonable to ask for what is still a relatively modest fee from the students, when they will likely make that back several times over as a result of having a degree once they go into employment.

Originally Posted by Maxime

Also, I always feel, but I do not hold you to that at all, that invoking the current budget deficit as reason for this student hike a little disingenuous

Yep, and you've probably had weaker arguments too - I'd not be at all surprised if you've had some politicians already giving an example of how many nurses' jobs would have to be cut to make up the loss if the tuition fees don't go up.

Just as a more general principle though - obviously at the moment almost nowhere has a pot of gold to throw around, so it's reasonable to at least look at all areas of expenditure or subsidy. I'm certain there are plenty other areas where wodges of money could be saved or better used - but that doesn't mean that tertiary education shouldn't be considered at all either! Just, it should be considered along with everything else.

Originally Posted by Mü0n

You also have to ask yourself: our system is generous? That's another reason to fight to keep it. Why try to mimick the inferior situation found elsewhere?

I'd imagine it comes down to a balancing act of everything you'd like against what you can afford - if, as it sounds from the 50% figure mentioned earlier, maintaining Quebec's low fees is something the population wants, then Charest's ultimately going to have a choice between giving way or losing power - but he'll presumably have to raise taxes or cut expenditure somewhere else.

All a crappy balancing act, as guaranteed SOMEONE will be unhappy with the result!

[Maxime]

Originally Posted by ieya

I'd imagine it comes down to a balancing act of everything you'd like against what you can afford - if, as it sounds from the 50% figure mentioned earlier, maintaining Quebec's low fees is something the population wants, then Charest's ultimately going to have a choice between giving way or losing power - but he'll presumably have to raise taxes or cut expenditure somewhere else.

All a crappy balancing act, as guaranteed SOMEONE will be unhappy with the result!

What's horrible is that it is perfectly predictable that the government will never change their position no matter what happens: the current approval rating is around 25% for the Premier. Thus they figure, and it's understandable, that no matter what side of the crisis they support, they could siphon political points, and of course then there's no reason to go for the option that would require to back down on your proposals.

The big question, then, is which side of the crisis will be able to gain points as the stability of the province becomes more and more questionable. I presume that only if there is a shift were more citizens support the student cause to bring said support above 50% would the government ever decide to reconsider their position.

[Weirdo]

Originally Posted by TerraEsperZ

The students want to feel big and tough by challenging the *evil* system, no matter how justified the decision to raise tuition fees might be. Add to that the fact that they're being supported by the big unions (which are themselves little mafias of their own) and you get the present clusterhug.

The smug, dismissive tone of your post removes all credibility from your argument.

[Archangel3d]

Sadly it's also true that the students here will protest at the drop of a hat, and are far too easily rabble-roused. I say this as a former student.

And the fees have been too low for too long, building up a defecit that the new crop of students will have to shoulder because each previous crop of students protested even the slightest cost increase to keep in par with the costs. So the politicians of the past, to mollify the students of their time, set up a situation in which the students of their future (i.e. now) would have to pay for the difference. And the current protests, ultimately, are looking for the same deal; let the students of tomorrow pay for the low cost of education today.

Now, that's not to say that the government is in the right. It isn't and it's going at this with a sledgehammer. But a huge problem is that both sides are too busy making the other side appear to be horribly villainous while demanding irrealistic things ("free university education for everyone! No tuition fees! No penalties for failing classes!")

[Maxime]

You have to admire, though, with the current crisis, the participation of many in the civil process, which I had not seen in many years when I consider the last decade. Even the student protests of 2005 where ridiculously small in comparison. It's probably due to a conjonction of factors, the government corruption being one, more so than the justness of the cause.

By the way, tonight's protest already seems like it will amass between 3000 and 4000 people. Let's hope things don't go sour!

[Peregrine]

Originally Posted by Archangel3d

"No penalties for failing classes!")

Seriously?

[Maxime]

Yup, I heard that thrown around (more for the CEGEP years than University though). My impression has always been that it's an infinitely small minority though

[Sprint]

I dunno, I mean, sure I understand nobody wants their tuition to go up, but that's ridiculously low, and unsustainable. A subsidy is supposed to be a sizeable chunk of the cost of something, but not the vast majority of the actual price.

[Mü0n]

Everyone in this thread had not mentioned that the huge study that was at the basis of the creation of cegeps also called for completely free tuition for higher education within a few years. This was in the sixties. It doesn't surprise me that this is not a mentality shared by north Americans anglophones.since they have been slowly used to crappy tuition.

[Sprint]

The cost of higher education has skyrocketed since the 60s. I am certainly against a lot of this (University presidents are grossly overpaid etc) but a lot of it is unavoidable.

There is certainly room for rational discussion for how to pay for that, whether via taxes or tuition.

[Davmeister84]

IMO, the protesters would have a lot more public support if they pushed for those types of issues (inquiries into operational efficiency, availability of loans/bursaries for the disadvantaged, etc...) instead of being the loudest for refusing a tuition increase and then going even more radical through violence and property destruction.

It also don't help that they are demonizing other students, which only serves to weaken their potential bases of support.

[Mü0n]

There are known and recognized manifestation poopers that break stuff that have joined the ranks of the manifestation (the Black Block has been spotted, I've heard they have been part of the Canucks riots as well). Do you recognize the possibility that it might not actually be students who have clashed the hardest with the police?

[Mü0n]

Also take in mind that the current provincial governement is probably glad that this student strike is happening, because it completely overrides several scandals they've found themselves in, the biggest being:

-the North mining development plan that the population is super unsure of because it doesn't look like it's planned well and if it's going to actually give us money rather than siphoning it out of the country

-the rampant corruption system with tons of specific contracts that have fallen under study related to construction (there have been a litteral explosion of construction projects, highway maintenance, bridge built anew in the last few years in Quebec).

I'd say he's glad the spotlight is turning to the student strike where the order of magnitude in question is in the hundreds of millions, rather than the several billions (or perhaps tens of billions) of mismanaged money of the other two.

[Andrea Davion]

Showdown going on between riot police and students. It looks like the police are getting ready to start a beatdown.
http://cutvmontreal.ca/live

Update: The pepper spray has started. Members of the press have already been sprayed twice.

[Charion]

Originally Posted by Davmeister84

IMO, the protesters would have a lot more public support if they pushed for those types of issues (inquiries into operational efficiency, availability of loans/bursaries for the disadvantaged, etc...) instead of being the loudest for refusing a tuition increase and then going even more radical through violence and property destruction.

It also don't help that they are demonizing other students, which only serves to weaken their potential bases of support.

Demonizing other students? When did this happen? Last thing I heard that could be related to this was some people preventing other students from taking their finals possibly.

[Mü0n]

some student associations have been on strike since the first week of February. We're close to the point of no-return where the semester will be completely lost, because it'd mean classes past June 30th, even accounting for classes on weekends iirc.

[Maxime]

Just got back home, since I'm unfortunately working tomorrow. But if anyone wants to follow the live events, you can still check out the link posted above by Andrea. I'll be posting pictures either later tonight or tomorrow morning.

[Maxime]

Looking at the CUTV broadcast, it seems the blocus is at a place I had already passed, and I thought I was close to the end of the manifestation. That means there must be quite the several groups downtown.

[TerraEsperZ]

Originally Posted by Weirdo

The smug, dismissive tone of your post removes all credibility from your argument.

I fully admit I presented my opinion poorly, but Archangel3d presented my exact sentiment much better than I could have. And I've been a student too, and I've seen how most students are only too happy to protest against anything as long as you give them a reason. I'm not saying they don't have one right now, but that even if they didn't, they'd still do it.

Things are not helped by having the leader of the CLASSE student association, Gabriel Nadeau-Dubois, being all too happy to be in the news and until recently, refusing to condemn any of the violence that happened during the various protests. I personally feel that his attitude and his total refusal to negotiate or discuss anything short of keeping the freeze on tuition fees are hurting the whole movement.

In a perfect world, I would like education to be free for all, college and university included. But with the province's finances already being in a very dire positions, everyone's going to have to contribute if we ever hope to regain control of our economy. The problem is that everyone wants someone else to pay, yet they all want to keep all their free services and advantages, which is unsustainable. I hope the province of Quebec never has to declare bankruptcy; I don't know how things would play out with Canada being forced to bail us out in such a case, but I could easily see us doing what happened in Greece recently, i.e. people going out in the streets and just wrecking everything and looting all they can, as if that was supposed to make things better instead of much worse.

[Maxime]

Originally Posted by TerraEsperZ

In a perfect world, I would like education to be free for all, college and university included. But with the province's finances already being in a very dire positions, everyone's going to have to contribute if we ever hope to regain control of our economy.

How are some not contributing right now? Under the current system, it's exactly as you say, everyone IS contributing. Under the proposed system, students would be moving toward sharing a heavier and heavier baggage. Opening the door to one tuition hike is opening the door for many others to follow.

The problem is that everyone wants someone else to pay, yet they all want to keep all their free services and advantages, which is unsustainable.

That's your opinion.

I hope the province of Quebec never has to declare bankruptcy; I don't know how things would play out with Canada being forced to bail us out in such a case, but I could easily see us doing what happened in Greece recently, i.e. people going out in the streets and just wrecking everything and looting all they can, as if that was supposed to make things better instead of much worse.

I'm not sure if I should comment on this

[Bristo]

I think it's important to point out that most of the student protestors aren't the ones who will be hit the hardest by this hike. Most of them will be finished school before the last year of the hike, so I think we can put to rest the idea that they are just being selfish and entitled.

Quebec is a beautiful province, but it is a shit-heap when it comes to corruption. I think that this is more about how shady the government is, where all the money is going (Looking squarely at you, Rizzuto family), and less about getting free (or the cheapest) education.

[Davmeister84]

Originally Posted by Charion

Demonizing other students? When did this happen? Last thing I heard that could be related to this was some people preventing other students from taking their finals possibly.

At least at Concordia University, there's been a lot of the student leadership proclaiming outrage about students trying to go to class/exams despite strike votes by their departments. They're claiming it's undemocratic, they're undermining the moral majority, that sort of thing.

[Charion]

Originally Posted by Davmeister84

At least at Concordia University, there's been a lot of the student leadership proclaiming outrage about students trying to go to class/exams despite strike votes by their departments. They're claiming it's undemocratic, they're undermining the moral majority, that sort of thing.

Okay now that part is bullshit. At least here, you don't tell students what they can and can't do. If you do you'll get thrown out on your ass, as for if your one of the people trying to prevent them from going to class or taking their test, someone will follow you home. That's money they're taking out of your pocket.

[Davmeister84]

Originally Posted by Charion

Okay now that part is bullshit. At least here, you don't tell students what they can and can't do. If you do you'll get thrown out on your ass, as for if your one of the people trying to prevent them from going to class or taking their test, someone will follow you home. That's money they're taking out of your pocket.

http://www.montrealgazette.com/news/...#ixzz1r2E4ozu7

http://www.montrealgazette.com/busin...481/story.html

Originally Posted by Concordia Student Union

Students have been informed repeatedly that crossing a picket line is a moral decision, and discouraged from doing so, but it is an extremely small minority of students who have been actually physically blocked from classrooms.

Quote came from here: https://www.facebook.com/notes/conco...15314488482545

Video of student protestors ruining class time: https://www.facebook.com/video/video...51405581250061

Another of the same: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eVJjs-0d9w

[Aidan Pryde]

I'm curious as to the financial state of universities/colleges in Quebec. If they don't get this tuition increase what will happen? It's obvious the province doesn't have the money to increase post-secondary funding so what would the consequences be of no new money coming into universities? Increase class sizes? Lower wages? Longer wait lists?