[Blood Bowl: Legendary Edition] Forumopolis Bowl Season IV - GG Gitsnik's Gankers GG - Page 27

Laoke · 2012-03-24, 4:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bassetking

So, I've got building my Cage down solid (as Archangel can attest) But how do I then move my dudes down the field? I keep trying to punch a hole or form a line but between my Black Orkz and Linemen, I can't seem to keep enough of the field clear to get my cage through.

Slowly. The idea is to force the opponent to come to you and to gain a slow advantage on the pitch by stomping him into the Astrogranite.

You can make a run for it if the way ahead looks clear, but really you're looking at moving 2-3 squares max per turn with a cage. That's why it really only works well with bashy teams. You WANT to score slowly - the idea is to hold possession and deny your elf-balling opponent the chance to score during what remains of the half.

Sheldon · 2012-03-24, 4:47 PM

Moving the cage is the harder part and if you're unlucky with your Blocks and Armor rolls and can't knock out or injure enough enemy players to clear a path or at least intimidate the other coach into backing off, you can get stuck and run out of time quite easily.

How to use your Blitz is vitally important. You should always blitz forward to keep moving, even if it's just one square at a time and force your opponent to constantly reshuffle his defense. Good opponents will try to make you blitz backwards or sidewards and waste your turns.

It also gets easier once you get Mighty Blow on a Blitzer or two and can more reliably take down a lot of low armor targets over the course of a half.

Sven Stryker · 2012-03-24, 5:02 PM

Moving a cage involves knowing what is important about a cage:
Don't let any standing opponents start adjacent to it.
Don't leave an open path to your Ball Carrier.
Don't let a single blitz open up an easy path to your Ball Carrier, or have a prepared escape plan if it can. (generally handoff to a cage corner)

So in order to progress a cage, you need to be able to create a new position further up the field that fulfills those same goals. The 2 easiest ways to do this is to keep a man or 2 available to move up and form a new cage, or be able to block opponents off of your existing cage without using the cage players(so they can move up themselves).

There are millions of variations you can do out of a cage, but they're all reliant on your opponent's positioning. For example, if your opponent goes heavy on one side of your cage, you can turn that side of the cage into a wall and loop around him in an L formation while your Carrier runs the opposite angle. Sometimes, the best choice for a cage is to just not move, and make sure that your opponent still can't Block your Cage players or Blitz your Ball carrier.

Very rarely will a Cage be able to just move directly forward down the pitch. That generally only happens if your opponent gives you space to move slowly instead of trying to pressure your cage. (and in that case, it probably won't move more than a square forward)

Bassetking · 2012-03-24, 6:03 PM

This is great advice. Thanks guys. I'd already sussed some of that out, but hearing it repeated makes me feel better. Now I just need to get the practice in in doing that. That, and figure out how to Block my way through a staggered wall of elves.

Sven Stryker · 2012-03-24, 6:24 PM

Ah, the Net. The counter to the Cage.

Striker · 2012-03-24, 6:26 PM

The only way to beat that is to make it too expensive for your opponent to continue doing it.

Laoke · 2012-03-24, 6:36 PM

They're elves.

If they're netting by standing 1 square away, see if there's a way to blitz your way to some freedom. If not then just grind your way forward turning them into 100% organic, free range sausages.

If they're standing next to you, offer up a WAAAAARGH of thanks to Gork and Mork as you proceed to eat them without that sissyfied processing first. Chances are if they do this that you'll be able to move the front guys forward one square, run 2 guys forward to be in front of them, and reform the cage.

Is it always going to work? No. You will eventually fail a block although as you get more rerolls, block, and guard that's going to become less and less likely. But what you will do is force them to come to you and clump up on the cage. And when they do that - WHAM! Elfball a pass to a BOB in space and let him stroll to the end zone in a 'Haters got to hate' style gait.

Bloodbowl is all about control. Control of the ball and control of the pitch.

Rutkowski · 2012-03-24, 6:52 PM

Also, make sure that you can elfball yourself into a bullshit touchdown. I usually got cage with my Orcs and then elfball a touchdown on the final turn of my drive by keeping a lino or blitzer by himself really far away from the rest(but within passing/run and passing-range). Sure, the elves/whatever other squishy team can cover him but not only is that one or two more elves not punshing my orcs but I could try to dodge out, run to the endzone and then try the pass.

It's risky and fail rather often but man when it works it's so goddamn satisfying.

Sheldon · 2012-03-24, 7:10 PM

Having a Option B is good advice, but...

If I was the elf coach and you'd send a Orc Blitzer or Lino ahead of the cage towards my endzone, I'd leave him there untouched unless it's Turn 6 of the half or later. Every Orc you send away from your cage gives me a number advantage around the ball or, if you've already beaten me up some, less of a number disadvantage. Which means my chances to pressure the ball go up and I also take less punches.

I'd dare you to go for the pass. If you fumble it, my chance to get the ball and score on your drive. If it succeeds, I got 2-3 turns or more left to equalize and we end the half 1-1 which means the bashing side hasn't accomplished its goal.

Edit:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rutkowski

Sure, the elves/whatever other squishy team can cover him but not only is that one or two more elves not punshing my orcs but I could try to dodge out, run to the endzone and then try the pass.

I had to quote this because the bolded bit made me giggle. Just the mental image of a bunch of Orc tough guys working out cunning plans how to avoid elf punishment.

But more importantly, if you send a Blitzer or Lino ahead of your cage, you actually increase your chances of your orcs getting punished. Elves are good at quick repositioning to take down vulnerable targets. Orcs are invincible when they clump up. Don't go and try clever guerilla tactics against elves. That's their game.

Rutkowski · 2012-03-24, 7:13 PM

I wouldn't send the blitzer up until the second half of the half though and if I didn't have the strength advantage I wouldn't do it until I got no other choice. But yeah, it's a risky technique but it's a last resort.

FFTimberwolf · 2012-03-24, 8:29 PM

Blitzer with Dodge, Catcher +1MA, Lineman +1AG, Lineman with Wrassle

Sheldon · 2012-03-24, 8:34 PM

I want Wrassle. Gimme your Wrassle.

I only got one Linerat skill so far and that has to be Kick obviously. Hopefully I'll get a Wrestler or two in time to troll the Norse.

Sven Stryker · 2012-03-24, 8:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Laoke

They're elves.

If they're netting by standing 1 square away, see if there's a way to blitz your way to some freedom. If not then just grind your way forward turning them into 100% organic, free range sausages.

If they're standing next to you, offer up a WAAAAARGH of thanks to Gork and Mork as you proceed to eat them without that sissyfied processing first. Chances are if they do this that you'll be able to move the front guys forward one square, run 2 guys forward to be in front of them, and reform the cage.

Is it always going to work? No. You will eventually fail a block although as you get more rerolls, block, and guard that's going to become less and less likely. But what you will do is force them to come to you and clump up on the cage. And when they do that - WHAM! Elfball a pass to a BOB in space and let him stroll to the end zone in a 'Haters got to hate' style gait.

Bloodbowl is all about control. Control of the ball and control of the pitch.

No. Net capital N. Similar to Cage capital C. The point of a Net is only letting the Cager blitz one player per turn, and not be able to get around your players.

Cage:
X_X
_B_
X_X
123

Net:
_N__N__N__N__N_
_N__N__N__N__N_
1234567C76 54321

They can't break it in one turn because they can't blitz both guys in a pair. Works like a cage but in reverse. Then just move everything back one space when he blitzes.

Laoke · 2012-03-24, 8:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sven Stryker

No. Net capital N. Similar to Cage capital C. The point of a Net is only letting the Cager blitz one player per turn, and not be able to get around your players.

Cage:
X_X
_B_
X_X
123

Net:
_N__N__N__N__N_
_N__N__N__N__N_
1234567C76 54321

They can't break it in one turn because they can't blitz both guys in a pair. Works like a cage but in reverse. Then just move everything back one space when he blitzes.

Yeah but by doing that you're tying up 10 players stopping 5 of his. And then he'll have control of the pitch and the ball and then bad things happen.

Hopefully not to the bashy team but...

Sven Stryker · 2012-03-24, 9:00 PM

No, it stops all 11 of his. It fills the whole field. That is 100% control of your half of the pitch. He can blitz 1 and base 5. Then you just dodge out since you're elves and make a new Net.

Striker was right when he said:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Striker

The only way to beat that is to make it too expensive for your opponent to continue doing it.

Sheldon · 2012-03-24, 9:13 PM

You don't need more than 8* players to deny a cage any advancement beyond one square per turn. A net four players wide and two players deep can cover a width of ten squares, and that still leaves three defenders free to harass stragglers or take a crack at the backside of the cage. Bashers can't outmaneuver that, they can only hope their Blitzes have punch and that elves fail their dodge rolls, granting them a turnover and opportunities for extra blocks.

Once elves get down to 6-7 players, that's when it starts to get hard to cast a solid net and the defense will have to leave at least one route open for the offense. That's when you'll see elves offering you a clear path down one flank one turn, in the hopes that you take it and they can pin you down against the sideline next turn.

Edit: To elaborate on the numbers game a bit, the cage crew usually consists of six players, not five. One ballcarrier, four cage corners and one Blitzer because that's best not done by the corners who could cause a turnover and leave your ballcarrier exposed. So at best it's 6 attackers versus 8 defenders around the ball. And again if the Orcs want to send five guys away from the cage to do stuff somewhere else on the pitch, the elves will love that. AG4 loves to spread the play, ST4 loves to keep it tight.

Sven Stryker · 2012-03-24, 9:20 PM

Yeah, you don't have to make a full Net. Rarely have the players or positioning to. But small ones still work great, as Sheldon said. But a full one keeps your opponent completely out of your half of the field for at least 1 turn, usually more.

Bassetking · 2012-03-24, 9:25 PM

YES. That. That exactly. How do I, using a Cage, break a Net?

Sheldon · 2012-03-24, 9:33 PM

Incidentally, the fact it's so easy to stop a cage with a 11 player net is why I'm a firm believer in bashers kicking first against elves. Caging your way to a 1-1 at halftime after you've reduced the elves to 8-9 players in the two to four turns they took to score is easier than caging your way to a 1-0 at halftime against a full strength elf defense.

Sheldon · 2012-03-24, 9:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bassetking

YES. That. That exactly. How do I, using a Cage, break a Net?

Kill the elves. Kill all the elves.

There is no finesse to it.

Or throw a goblin over it.

Or throw a goblin into it.

Archangel3d · 2012-03-24, 10:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bassetking

YES. That. That exactly. How do I, using a Cage, break a Net?

Yeah, the Net is really what allowed me to grind your Orcs to a halt last game. The thing is, the Net is the counter to the Cage, it's the thing you're supposed to use to defeat the Cage, or at least, stop it from advancing.

I suppose the counter to the Net (especially a loose-surround Net, one that's probing for a weakness in the cage) would be Dodging through or running a receiver around the enemy lines and throwing a Pass. Not the easiest to do with a slower moving team, though. I probably wouldn't try a Net against Skaven or Lizardmen, for example, but against Dwarves and Orcs, it's quite effective, because they already don't move fast and it's easy to redistribute a much faster team.

That said, while the Net can stall a Cage, I don't know how to break the Cage well, as you saw. Still working on it. I imagine that I'd have to build a dedicated cage-breaker with Strip Ball and Block, and possibly Leap.

Nim · 2012-03-24, 11:43 PM

The Counter to a Net is the 2-1 grind.

Passing teams can score quick no matter what you do, letting them receive first means that you have a better chance to caging across the field in the second half when they've been ground down a bit. Even if you can't manage a win your odds for a tie are greatly increased.

Sheldon · 2012-03-25, 12:10 AM

Well, not quite, because the net is a stalling tactic that aims to minimize damage to your team so you can defend for an entire half and still have enough players available in Turn 8/16 to stop the touchdown.

e.g. elves receive first, score in three turns, bashers have five turns to equalize and are denied because the net delays the cage for long enough - second half the elves can take the draw or play to win, depending on the situation.

The cage is a slow grinding offense. The net is a low-risk, stalling defense. They're both designed with the 2-1 gameplan in mind and the winner is decided by who can execute better (or roll better).

Nim · 2012-03-25, 12:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheldon

The cage is a slow grinding offense. The net is a low-risk, stalling defense. They're both designed with the 2-1 gameplan in mind and the winner is decided by who can execute better (or roll better).

Oh no doubt, but I feel that all other things being equal the bashing team is slightly favored in that game, especially if they kick in the first half. The bashing player can force the passers to roll a lot more dice.

Sheldon · 2012-03-25, 12:41 AM

I'd agree, generally speaking. Of course it heavily depends on skills (How much Dodge do the elves have? How much Tackle the bashers? Do they have a dedicated killer?) but the net is a delay tactic not a winning strategy and is basically the elf coach admitting that directly pressuring the ballcarrier didn't work or is too risky.

2012-03-24, 5:02 PM	#653
Sven Stryker Hi little guy! Join Date: Aug 2005	Moving a cage involves knowing what is important about a cage: Don't let any standing opponents start adjacent to it. Don't leave an open path to your Ball Carrier. Don't let a single blitz open up an easy path to your Ball Carrier, or have a prepared escape plan if it can. (generally handoff to a cage corner) So in order to progress a cage, you need to be able to create a new position further up the field that fulfills those same goals. The 2 easiest ways to do this is to keep a man or 2 available to move up and form a new cage, or be able to block opponents off of your existing cage without using the cage players(so they can move up themselves). There are millions of variations you can do out of a cage, but they're all reliant on your opponent's positioning. For example, if your opponent goes heavy on one side of your cage, you can turn that side of the cage into a wall and loop around him in an L formation while your Carrier runs the opposite angle. Sometimes, the best choice for a cage is to just not move, and make sure that your opponent still can't Block your Cage players or Blitz your Ball carrier. Very rarely will a Cage be able to just move directly forward down the pitch. That generally only happens if your opponent gives you space to move slowly instead of trying to pressure your cage. (and in that case, it probably won't move more than a square forward) __________________

2012-03-24, 6:03 PM	#654
Bassetking Sophisticated Ignorance Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Dayton, Ohio	This is great advice. Thanks guys. I'd already sussed some of that out, but hearing it repeated makes me feel better. Now I just need to get the practice in in doing that. That, and figure out how to Block my way through a staggered wall of elves. __________________ Write my curses in cursive FO 2011-2012 BQBL, 2011-2012 Survivor III, 2012 March Madness Brackets

2012-03-24, 6:24 PM	#655
Sven Stryker Hi little guy! Join Date: Aug 2005	Ah, the Net. The counter to the Cage. __________________

2012-03-24, 6:26 PM	#656
Striker Insanity Inc. Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Vienna, Austria	The only way to beat that is to make it too expensive for your opponent to continue doing it. __________________

2012-03-24, 6:36 PM	#657
Laoke Evil Little Ducker Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Wellington	They're elves. If they're netting by standing 1 square away, see if there's a way to blitz your way to some freedom. If not then just grind your way forward turning them into 100% organic, free range sausages. If they're standing next to you, offer up a WAAAAARGH of thanks to Gork and Mork as you proceed to eat them without that sissyfied processing first. Chances are if they do this that you'll be able to move the front guys forward one square, run 2 guys forward to be in front of them, and reform the cage. Is it always going to work? No. You will eventually fail a block although as you get more rerolls, block, and guard that's going to become less and less likely. But what you will do is force them to come to you and clump up on the cage. And when they do that - WHAM! Elfball a pass to a BOB in space and let him stroll to the end zone in a 'Haters got to hate' style gait. Bloodbowl is all about control. Control of the ball and control of the pitch. __________________ "The dynamite crate has been glued shut, set on fire, humped, dropped about 6 feet and has been covered with dirt. I wait with awe to see what you're going to do to it next" - Me, Call of Cthulhu* Mafia game 2010*

2012-03-24, 4:47 PM	#652
Sheldon Den Henkelpott im Visier Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Rhine-Ruhr-Plex, AGS	Moving the cage is the harder part and if you're unlucky with your Blocks and Armor rolls and can't knock out or injure enough enemy players to clear a path or at least intimidate the other coach into backing off, you can get stuck and run out of time quite easily. How to use your Blitz is vitally important. You should always blitz forward to keep moving, even if it's just one square at a time and force your opponent to constantly reshuffle his defense. Good opponents will try to make you blitz backwards or sidewards and waste your turns. It also gets easier once you get Mighty Blow on a Blitzer or two and can more reliably take down a lot of low armor targets over the course of a half.

2012-03-24, 6:52 PM	#658
Rutkowski Know nothing about posting Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Uppsala/Sweden AKA: Register, Entropy	Also, make sure that you can elfball yourself into a bullshit touchdown. I usually got cage with my Orcs and then elfball a touchdown on the final turn of my drive by keeping a lino or blitzer by himself really far away from the rest(but within passing/run and passing-range). Sure, the elves/whatever other squishy team can cover him but not only is that one or two more elves not punshing my orcs but I could try to dodge out, run to the endzone and then try the pass. It's risky and fail rather often but man when it works it's so goddamn satisfying. __________________

2012-03-24, 7:13 PM	#660
Rutkowski Know nothing about posting Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Uppsala/Sweden AKA: Register, Entropy	I wouldn't send the blitzer up until the second half of the half though and if I didn't have the strength advantage I wouldn't do it until I got no other choice. But yeah, it's a risky technique but it's a last resort. __________________

2012-03-24, 8:29 PM	#661
FFTimberwolf Omni'Mech Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Conway, AR	Blitzer with Dodge, Catcher +1MA, Lineman +1AG, Lineman with Wrassle

2012-03-24, 8:34 PM	#662
Sheldon Den Henkelpott im Visier Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Rhine-Ruhr-Plex, AGS	I want Wrassle. Gimme your Wrassle. I only got one Linerat skill so far and that has to be Kick obviously. Hopefully I'll get a Wrestler or two in time to troll the Norse.

2012-03-24, 9:13 PM	#666
Sheldon Den Henkelpott im Visier Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Rhine-Ruhr-Plex, AGS	You don't need more than 8* players to deny a cage any advancement beyond one square per turn. A net four players wide and two players deep can cover a width of ten squares, and that still leaves three defenders free to harass stragglers or take a crack at the backside of the cage. Bashers can't outmaneuver that, they can only hope their Blitzes have punch and that elves fail their dodge rolls, granting them a turnover and opportunities for extra blocks. Once elves get down to 6-7 players, that's when it starts to get hard to cast a solid net and the defense will have to leave at least one route open for the offense. That's when you'll see elves offering you a clear path down one flank one turn, in the hopes that you take it and they can pin you down against the sideline next turn. Edit: To elaborate on the numbers game a bit, the cage crew usually consists of six players, not five. One ballcarrier, four cage corners and one Blitzer because that's best not done by the corners who could cause a turnover and leave your ballcarrier exposed. So at best it's 6 attackers versus 8 defenders around the ball. And again if the Orcs want to send five guys away from the cage to do stuff somewhere else on the pitch, the elves will love that. AG4 loves to spread the play, ST4 loves to keep it tight. Last edited by Sheldon; 2012-03-24 at 9:22 PM.

2012-03-24, 9:20 PM	#667
Sven Stryker Hi little guy! Join Date: Aug 2005	Yeah, you don't have to make a full Net. Rarely have the players or positioning to. But small ones still work great, as Sheldon said. But a full one keeps your opponent completely out of your half of the field for at least 1 turn, usually more. __________________

2012-03-24, 9:25 PM	#668
Bassetking Sophisticated Ignorance Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Dayton, Ohio	YES. That. That exactly. How do I, using a Cage, break a Net? __________________ Write my curses in cursive FO 2011-2012 BQBL, 2011-2012 Survivor III, 2012 March Madness Brackets

2012-03-24, 9:33 PM	#669
Sheldon Den Henkelpott im Visier Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Rhine-Ruhr-Plex, AGS	Incidentally, the fact it's so easy to stop a cage with a 11 player net is why I'm a firm believer in bashers kicking first against elves. Caging your way to a 1-1 at halftime after you've reduced the elves to 8-9 players in the two to four turns they took to score is easier than caging your way to a 1-0 at halftime against a full strength elf defense.

2012-03-24, 11:43 PM	#672
Nim says hello. Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Four and twenty blackbirds.	The Counter to a Net is the 2-1 grind. Passing teams can score quick no matter what you do, letting them receive first means that you have a better chance to caging across the field in the second half when they've been ground down a bit. Even if you can't manage a win your odds for a tie are greatly increased. __________________ You have 8 gold ingots. They are all the same weight, except for one that's marginally lighter. How can you find the lighter using a scale when you can only balance twice? Clue

2012-03-25, 12:10 AM	#673
Sheldon Den Henkelpott im Visier Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Rhine-Ruhr-Plex, AGS	Well, not quite, because the net is a stalling tactic that aims to minimize damage to your team so you can defend for an entire half and still have enough players available in Turn 8/16 to stop the touchdown. e.g. elves receive first, score in three turns, bashers have five turns to equalize and are denied because the net delays the cage for long enough - second half the elves can take the draw or play to win, depending on the situation. The cage is a slow grinding offense. The net is a low-risk, stalling defense. They're both designed with the 2-1 gameplan in mind and the winner is decided by who can execute better (or roll better).

2012-03-25, 12:41 AM	#675
Sheldon Den Henkelpott im Visier Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Rhine-Ruhr-Plex, AGS	I'd agree, generally speaking. Of course it heavily depends on skills (How much Dodge do the elves have? How much Tackle the bashers? Do they have a dedicated killer?) but the net is a delay tactic not a winning strategy and is basically the elf coach admitting that directly pressuring the ballcarrier didn't work or is too risky.