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bobsmyuncle
2011-01-24, 2:34 PM
I don't think there is a gibbed type editor for DA/DA2, unfortunately. On the bright side, I've only heard of two things that matter, spoiled just in case: who you choose to rule Ferelden and who kills the archdemon (presumably including the "knocked up Morrigan, nobody died" option).

So you don't have to worry about having a save for every permutation of race/gender/class/major plot decision.

PMAvers
2011-01-24, 2:43 PM
Hahaha, Dead Space 2 armor in DA2 (http://www.giantbomb.com/ser-isaac-of-clarke-really/17-3703/)

That is one wacky cross over.

I'd have to do some digging for the video again, but I swore I saw the Dead Space armor in the latest Skate game too.

EDIT: There it is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teVQolfffuw

frobbnik
2011-01-24, 2:54 PM
how is that any weirder than the ME/DA Blood Dragon gimmick?

Jobrill
2011-01-24, 3:25 PM
I have to admit, I really liked the backstory excuse/flavor they gave to explain why ME2 had Dragon Age armor, though.

Nim
2011-01-24, 11:09 PM
how is that any weirder than the ME/DA Blood Dragon gimmick?

Because both games came out of the same development house. From a lore standpoint it's no less wonky of course.

Kamileon
2011-01-31, 4:06 AM
Alright.

So, two things have changed since I last played DA:O.

1. I reinstalled Windows 7 64 bit.
2. I added RAM.

Otherwise my hardware is the same: 8800 GTS, Intel E8400. This is what I played DA:O on before.

I reinstalled it, and was going to play again some, but now it's crashing on launch. I've googled and found others with the same issue, the 8800 GTS seems to be a common theme. I haven't found any actual solution.

Has anyone had this issue and found anything that works?

Things I have done:
1. Reinstalled Dragon Age
2. Installed the newest video card drivers
3. Run DXdiag
4. Reinstalled DX9.0C
5. Reinstalled a few different VCRedists I saw people linking as issues
6. Run as an administrator in various ways (steam itself, the launcher, the direct game .exe)
7. Run in Compatibility mode (Various versions of Windows, incl. XPSP2)
8. Changed video settings, windows mode on and off, vsync on and off, high and low settings.
9. Set the affinity on the launcher to a single core, game crashes too fast to do anything else.
10. Reverted to older video card drivers I had an installer for on my HD
11. A thing where I moved the .ncf files from Steam and had it redownload some stuff, per another troubleshooting thing with DA:O crashing.

Welp.

Jimmy McForum
2011-01-31, 6:38 AM
What happens if you have saves, but didn't finish the game? I ground the wrong characters and couln't beat the last boss; does it give you options like in MA2 where Jacob gives you the little psych evaluation?

The Lazarus
2011-02-08, 9:03 PM
bbnK885PL8E

ProfessorCirno
2011-02-08, 9:46 PM
Hey look more concept shots.

We know more about Skyrim and it was just announced

Jobrill
2011-02-08, 9:49 PM
I cannot believe that the final DA2 companion is the second worst party member from Dragon Age: Awakenings.

Ugh.

Nim
2011-02-08, 9:49 PM
They stole Sokka's beard :(

74515

ProfessorCirno
2011-02-08, 9:58 PM
"Anders, the light-hearted rebel mage from Dragon Age: Origins, Awakening, has changed. Urged by his friend Justice to fight the Circle of Magi more actively, Anders agreed to become Justice's human host… only to find that his anger at the Circle warped Justice into the demonic spirit of Vengeance."

Seriously this is the worst game.

BRAVE OR GRAVE!
2011-02-08, 10:12 PM
What

BRAVE OR GRAVE!
2011-02-08, 10:12 PM
ANDERS U CHANGED

U CHANGED

ProfessorCirno
2011-02-08, 10:37 PM
ANDERS U CHANGED

U CHANGED

The same Anders that had like two or three different endings in Awakening.

Oh hey I guess that's why they don't give you a final save in that game, because nothing you choose matters.

Jobrill
2011-02-08, 10:42 PM
IN THE GRIMDARK FUTURE OF ANDERS

THERE IS ONLY WAR

Weirdo
2011-02-08, 10:43 PM
hens love roosters
geese love ganders
everyone else loves the mage anders

AKBoarder
2011-02-08, 10:44 PM
I'm really excitied for ti

ProfessorCirno
2011-02-08, 10:53 PM
So we know that Bioware loves to reuse their character ideas. New Anders?

http://i.imgur.com/yQl1P.jpg

BET YOU NEVER SAW THAT ONE COMING

Weirdo
2011-02-08, 10:55 PM
So... Lightening the skin-tone of the pirate lass, adding horns to Qunari, anders loves murder, what other funny little tidbits have come out of Dragon Age 2 so far?

Ten
2011-02-08, 10:55 PM
The same Anders that had like two or three different endings in Awakening.

Oh hey I guess that's why they don't give you a final save in that game, because nothing you choose matters.

It's Bioware.

Nothing you ever choose has ever mattered in any game they've ever made.

Weirdo
2011-02-08, 11:05 PM
It seems the Dalish have Welsh accents now, but tbh that sounds kind of cool. But, uh, your Dalish companion seems a little... disproportionate (http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Merrill).

Decius
2011-02-09, 12:07 AM
It's Bioware.

Nothing you ever choose has ever mattered in any game they've ever made.

Ashley William's racist ghost might disagree with you. Getting her killed improved my enjoyment tremendously. :v:

Jay
2011-02-09, 12:21 AM
So... Lightening the skin-tone of the pirate lass, adding horns to Qunari, anders loves murder, what other funny little tidbits have come out of Dragon Age 2 so far?


What? that horned dude in the trailer is a Qunari? How the fuck do they explain that shit? Also, I liked dark-skinned pirate chick.

ProfessorCirno
2011-02-09, 12:57 AM
It seems the Dalish have Welsh accents now, but tbh that sounds kind of cool. But, uh, your Dalish companion seems a little... disproportionate (http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Merrill).

She's literally a big breasted little girl.

Bioware just make it a romance sim already.

I mean hell, we know more about various abilities to fuck party members then we do actual gameplay and plot.

ProfessorCirno
2011-02-09, 12:58 AM
What? that horned dude in the trailer is a Qunari? How the fuck do they explain that shit? Also, I liked dark-skinned pirate chick.

They don't.

Also the Qunari who now have devil horns and are now all mindles evill badguys? They're the ones D Gaider called "Islamic borg."

Yep.

Human
2011-02-09, 12:59 AM
da:o Qunari:ST:TOS Klingons::DA2 Qunari:Movie Klingons

Default_Messiah
2011-02-09, 1:13 AM
They don't.

Also the Qunari who now have devil horns and are now all mindles evill badguys? They're the ones D Gaider called "Islamic borg."

Yep.

What gives you the impression that they're mindless?

ProfessorCirno
2011-02-09, 1:17 AM
What gives you the impression that they're mindless?

Bad guys in a Bioware game

Miles Standoffish
2011-02-09, 1:19 AM
Bad guys in a Bioware game

let me tell you about geth........

AKBoarder
2011-02-09, 1:31 AM
Legion is the best

Miles Standoffish
2011-02-09, 1:33 AM
Legion is the best

I always send him to die

ProfessorCirno
2011-02-09, 1:34 AM
let me tell you about geth........

The exception that proves the rule :nerdcross:

Jay
2011-02-09, 2:19 AM
So...Sten was like....wait...he didn't have horns so...

*head hurts*

WHY would they do that?

Jobrill
2011-02-09, 2:23 AM
Well, you see, sometimes VERY SPECIAL Qunari don't have horns because they are CHOSEN ONES and ahgd2=09r32=09r31=03r1uj09=333

Ten
2011-02-09, 2:25 AM
As stupid as the decision is, I think they're trying to give the different races more variety and style.

Not doing a great job of it but it's not like the Qunari had a fantastic design before anyway.

Jobrill
2011-02-09, 2:30 AM
I don't mind the Qunari retcon, I just wish they wouldn't insult our intelligence by trying to make Sten into some kind of special hornless Qunari. He doesn't even look close to a Qunari with no horns anyway. He looks like an unusually large human with red eyes. Just retcon him to look a normal Qunari in future artwork or game cameos and deal with it already.

Miles Standoffish
2011-02-09, 2:31 AM
can I get xp



that's literally all about what I care

edit: AHEM let me explain why the quandsfari design is not appropriate for this fantastical gaming world,

Default_Messiah
2011-02-09, 2:37 AM
So...Sten was like....wait...he didn't have horns so...

*head hurts*

WHY would they do that?

I remember reading that they had originally planned on giving Quanari horns to begin with, but decided later on that they didn't want to have to add in more inventory muddling with having to get specialised helmets for a single character, or having to make him abandon helmets altogether.

Frankly I like the design, and the art style. The characters look much more lively now they're stylised.

Jay
2011-02-09, 2:59 AM
Me too! It's just dumb how they handled it.

ProfessorCirno
2011-02-09, 3:10 AM
The Quanari thing would be more palpable if they weren't actually described as being evil demon-horned islamaborg.

Moldywart
2011-02-09, 3:38 AM
da:o Qunari:ST:TOS Klingons::DA2 Qunari:Movie Klingons
Dollars to dougnuts they will steal reference Worf's "We don't talk about it" scene from Trials and Tribble-ations.

dane
2011-02-09, 5:32 AM
i find it hilarious that so many people are shitting all over this game before it's release. We're in the same goddamn thread where ALL of us had to eat our words two years ago.

Jimmy McForum
2011-02-09, 6:52 AM
I'm still going to get this, depending on the reviews. I'm not saying shit until I get hands-on with the bitch.

Shriketastic
2011-02-09, 7:22 AM
Remember when everyone was bitching that DragonAge was going to be worst game because of *leaked spoiler A*?

good times

Miles Standoffish
2011-02-09, 7:25 AM
DA2 will own, fuck everything

Jimmy McForum
2011-02-09, 7:27 AM
Medieval Mass Effect is no way to get me not to like a game, all I'm saying.

Shriketastic
2011-02-09, 7:30 AM
I just love being splattered with blood and gore then having a civil conversation.

Kapitän Kälte
2011-02-09, 7:38 AM
We need a name for this behaviour. Usually, the nerd backlash comes after being excited about a game (movie, album, book, etc). With Dragon Age, people were disregarding it before it was released, loved it at release and then started to fall out of love again once the add-ons and expansions were released (not to mention the vastly superior Mass Effect 2).

Archangel3d
2011-02-09, 7:55 AM
I think it would be safe to call it the "Dragon Age" effect at this point. I'm still waiting for the trailer with a Marylin Manson soundtrack.

Jimmy McForum
2011-02-09, 7:56 AM
We need a name for this behaviour. Usually, the nerd backlash comes after being excited about a game (movie, album, book, etc). With Dragon Age, people were disregarding it before it was released, loved it at release and then started to fall out of love again once the add-ons and expansions were released (not to mention the vastly superior Mass Effect 2).
Drafting.

Miles Standoffish
2011-02-09, 7:58 AM
Drafting.

,

UngorEatStefan
2011-02-09, 8:07 AM
Wait did anyone think that the Qunari were anything but a bunch of bad guys? I mean Sten straight up says all we do is conquer and assimilate people because that is the Qunari way. This isn't like whoa oh my god they changed the Qunari!

FlawedLogic
2011-02-09, 8:19 AM
Giant Bomb put up a Quick Look, with Mark Laidlaw playing through a dungeon section. Shows off some combat and a bit of dialogue.

http://www.giantbomb.com/quick-look-road-show-dragon-age-ii/17-3772/

The combat does look fun, actually, since it still gives you the ability to control party AI and give specific orders. As long as every fight doesn't come down to "freeze everybody, kill everything, don't die" then it'll be an improvement.

Still not a big fan of the graphical style. I thought the first one was pretty mediocre, visually, and despite their efforts to push some kind of ambiguous style, I think DA2 is still looking bland.

Default_Messiah
2011-02-09, 8:23 AM
What do you mean by 'ambiguous' in terms of style?

FlawedLogic
2011-02-09, 8:30 AM
I just don't think their character or world designs are very memorable. I enjoyed DAO, but I barely remember what anything looked like. They wanted to push style in the sequel, so they made the armor spikier and the weapons larger. It just isn't particularly original.

I do like the use of vivid color in the Quick Look dungeon, so maybe there's room for them to charm me yet.

Weirdo
2011-02-09, 11:26 AM
I mean hell, we know more about various abilities to fuck party members then we do actual gameplay and plot.

This is a really good point.

AKBoarder
2011-02-09, 12:04 PM
The whole "Islamaborg" shit is blown way out of proportion as well. He used the Islamic world as comparison point for the relative technological and scientific development between the two different areas. He was trying to show that the Qunari were about as far advanced above whatever the fuck our kingdom is called as the Islamic world (read: Persia) was over Europe during the Dark Ages.

Jobrill
2011-02-09, 12:15 PM
Not that I have as much issue with the Islamic description as Professor Cirno, but I am pretty sure he was specifically comparing their culture and MO to the Muslim invasions of Europe in the middle ages (See: Moors in Spain).

AKBoarder
2011-02-09, 12:20 PM
Not that I have as much issue with the Islamic description as Professor Cirno, but I am pretty sure he was specifically comparing their culture and MO to the Muslim invasions of Europe in the middle ages (See: Moors in Spain).

Nah, he uses the Mongols for that comparison.


That's my fault for making the offhand comparison, I suppose. As I clarified later in that thread (which is really old-- even the meaning of Sten's name isn't correct anymore) I only meant the comparison between the Islamic cultures to the Christian cultures of Europe in medieval times, particularly in terms of their relative technological development. There is no aspect of the Islamic faith itself that is similar to the Qun philosophy, and I say "philosophy" deliberately since I don't think the Qun actually qualifies as a religion in the normal sense of the word.

In other respects, I'd say the Qunari are comparable to the Golden Horde. And they're also the Borg. And... well, really at that point easy comparisons to any culture begin to break down. I don't think it's a simple matter to draw comparisons between any culture in DA and the real world, nor is it meant to be. We were not required to have direct correlations.

Human
2011-02-09, 12:23 PM
I hope I can have gay sex with the crossbow dwarf. It won't be Dragon Age to me unless a dwarf is having sex.

Jobrill
2011-02-09, 12:26 PM
Nah, he uses the Mongols for that comparison.

Ah, Ok. I missed that other post, then.

ProfessorCirno
2011-02-09, 2:29 PM
That's sort of the issue though. We haven't seen anything about Quanari culture or science or etc etc, other then "they're brown invaders of Not Europe." That alone apparently makes them "militant islamic borg." With devil horns.

The difference between DA1 and DA2 as far as marketting goes is that DA1 actually gave us more and more information and gameplay videos as release came. DA2 we've seen The Fight on Shit Mountain and who you get to fuck. And that's it! Nothing more.

Also the lead dev for Dragon Age 1 literally quit Bioware after seeing what they were going to do with Dragon Age 2. So you know. That doesn't help.

bobsmyuncle
2011-02-09, 3:51 PM
I want to preface my remarks with a couple things: I'm really not trying to do apologetics for Bioware, I'm just interested in the subject matter and I thought your comments were worth engaging. I hope I don't come across as antagonistic.

That's sort of the issue though. We haven't seen anything about Quanari culture or science or etc etc, other then "they're brown invaders of Not Europe." That alone apparently makes them "militant islamic borg." With devil horns.
To be fair, the only Qunari we saw in DA2 is Sten (and his fellow scouts if you take him to the fade, but IIRC they all look just like Sten). They might all be of darker complexion than the pale Fereldans, or they could vary in skin tone since they conquer the shit out of everybody and then force them to join up Roman-style. You can discuss Qunari culture with Sten, usually by triggering a comment of his based on game locations or variables such as gender. They are caste-based, atheist, hierarchical, and suffer from a terminal case of Manifest Destiny. Are you getting the "dark skinned boogeymen" from Sten in-game or from David Gaider's forum posting? He was not the one who designed the Qunari, so I think the whole "Islam" issue is him communicating poorly on the forums, which results in stupid comments like "militant Islamic borg."

I think you could make a race-based critique of the first game, particularly with the origins that include your family members but don't respect the PC's choice of skin tone. It bothered me that you could create a black Cousland, Aeducan, or Tabris character but the game assigns your family members white skin anyway. This at least looks like it will be different in DA2, apparently your family will always have black hair but if you create a custom face they will copy your skin color. There are also a few pre-programmed facial structures that your family members will imitate should you select other than the default. You can customize your PC's face further, but the initial setting of the face you choose is what they go on.

The difference between DA1 and DA2 as far as marketting goes is that DA1 actually gave us more and more information and gameplay videos as release came. DA2 we've seen The Fight on Shit Mountain and who you get to fuck. And that's it! Nothing more.
I have a different opinion in this case, mostly because I wrote off anything Dragon Age related after "The New Shit" and was really surprised when there was suddenly buzz about it a month prior to release. In contrast, I've actually learned a bit about DA2's features, and I don't know who the romance options are (beyond a Dev apparently feeling the need to let us know that Hawke's siblings are not available for sex. bioware forums :blank:). I don't like everything they've changed but going in a more Mass Effect style direction is not a red flag to me.

Also the lead dev for Dragon Age 1 literally quit Bioware after seeing what they were going to do with Dragon Age 2. So you know. That doesn't help.
I assume you mean Brent Knowles? I don't know anything about the environment at Bioware or what he disliked so much about DA2, so I checked his blog and he had this to say:

Discussion on Dragon Age 2 began around this time and looking ahead I knew that I wasn’t going to be satisfied with what Dragon Age 2 would be. Party control/tactical combat are huge factors in my enjoyment of a role-playing game as is adopting the role of the hero (i.e., customizing my character). I was fairly certain Dragon Age would transition towards more of a Mass Effect experience, which while enjoyable is not the type of role-playing game I play. Could I be the lead designer on such a title? Certainly… though if I were going to work on a game adopting a set-in-stone protagonist I’d rather work on something lighter, like a shooter.

That's a valid opinion, I just don't share it. I don't mind having a "default" character that the company can use in advertising, because for all the Mark Vanderloo based advertising I can fire up ME and run around with a scarred up FemShep. I can respect his decision to walk away from a trend that he doesn't like with a desire to try to create more old-school style RPGs, but I don't think making DA2 more like ME2 is a death knell for the game.

ProfessorCirno
2011-02-09, 4:28 PM
RE: Quanari -

My issue is that the only thing they have similar to Middle Ages Islam is that they're attacking Not Europe and they're darker skinned. We've seen no signs of them having anything similar to the Islamic Golden Age, for example. The issue is that the designation was "Hey they're attacking Europe, islamic booooorg."

And honestly, just flat out saying "Militant islamic borg" alone is grounds of what the fuck-ness.

RE: Brent Knowles -

I feel that having one of the lead designers leave is a very bad sign. I also feel that DA2 will not be like ME2 for a huge number of reasons. ME2 had a significantly more sizable budget and design time as well as a larger team working on it. DA2 on the other hand has a skeleton crew and a laughably tiny budget. Beyond that you can see what the two teams have also done - compare the ME2 DLC with DA:O's, home to Witch Hunt, potentially one of the most egregiously bad DLCs that've been made.

Making DA2 like ME2 would not be a death knell for the game, though it would be frustrating since Dragon Age was meant to be the spiritual successor to Baldur's Gate 2. But making the game slapdash and trying to paint it with ME2's picture does not make for a good game.

Edit: To put it another way:

Leading up to DA: O we had a lot of bad PR by the PR machine. Leading up to DA2 we've seen a lot of bad about the actual game itself. We've seen terrible quotes from the actual developers, not the people running the PR machine. DA had Merilyn Manson telling us it was "the new shit." DA2 has the lead writer and lead developer tell us that there's no top down view because they want us to see the ceiling, and there's no friendly fire because someone might accidentally toggle it and make the game harder for themselves and have no idea what friendly fire actually does.

BRAVE OR GRAVE!
2011-02-09, 4:54 PM
Besides the convo system (with added "I am too dumb to figure out what this means" icons) and the thankful inclusion of a non-silent protagonist (which most games should have), what's particularly ME2ish about DA2, I have to ask?

So far, it just seems like a slightly dumbed down version of DAO, with tired looking graphics and seemingly uninspired story.

I'm not enthused. I mean, nothing has blown me away. Unlike that Deus Ex: HR interview trailer where the Art Director basically seduced me with his take on story and worldbuilding.

ProfessorCirno
2011-02-09, 5:16 PM
That's more or less what I mean. DA2 is being made into being like ME2 only in the most superficial ways - the rest appears to be "DAO, but worse."

Nim
2011-02-09, 6:14 PM
Professor Cirno, you seem really hostile, arn't you the guy who hates Bioware in general anyway? Why would you care what they're doing with a game?

Based on the Giant Bomb LP posted the gameplay looks fine. I poke fun, and some things have made me leery enough to wait for reviews, but if this thread taught us anything damning the game before it's even out is unwise.

Nim
2011-02-09, 6:17 PM
That's more or less what I mean. DA2 is being made into being like ME2 only in the most superficial ways - the rest appears to be "DAO, but worse."

Worse how? Nothing I've seen in any of the videos or prelaunch stuff makes anything sound like a step backwards from DA: O. Most of the differences appear stylistic (art design, talking protagonist etc.)

bobsmyuncle
2011-02-09, 6:58 PM
I agree with you that the reference to Islam was stupid, and I don't care enough to nitpick in exactly what ways it was. My main dislike of it is that the Qunari are portrayed as baldly aggressive and intolerant and when the Exalted Marches (Not Crusades) are called to push them back, the sense of the narrative is that they deserve it because they instigated the fight. Comparing them to Islam implies that Gaider thinks this way about the real Crusades.

About the comparisons to ME2, I can't really say besides the fact that people keep comparing the two. We've been pared down from seven or eight Origins to one and the PC is voiced now, which is when comparisons to Shepard started up. I don't think the games are actually going to be similar. I also agree that some of the changes (removing tactical combat, removing friendly fire) are unappealing, but it does show that they listen to the people posting on their boards and try to address their complaints. If they get slammed in reviews they probably won't do it again.

Nim - you don't have to love a company to talk about them.

Nim
2011-02-09, 7:22 PM
Nim - you don't have to love a company to talk about them.

Of course not, but he doesn't seem very interested in the games and only ever has the most negative and hyperbolic things to say.

ProfessorCirno
2011-02-09, 11:11 PM
Of course not, but he doesn't seem very interested in the games and only ever has the most negative and hyperbolic things to say.

I've stated before that I honestly liked ME2. It had it's flaws, but what game doesn't? It was a good game!

I think DAO falls into the same pod as a few other Bioware games including ME1: it's polished and technically proficient but it doesn't really spark anything in me. It's by the books. It's mediocre. It's not bad, but it's not really that great, either.

I think DA2 will be a legit bad game, standing alongside Jade Empire and the original campaign to Neverwinter Nights.

As for hyperbolic, how so? Nothing I've said here was false. I'm not joking or making a random statement when I say that their reasoning for removing top-down view was because they wanted people to "see the ceiling," that's the reason they gave. Same with removing friendly fire completely. If you think these statements are me being hyperbolic and negative, I'm not sure what that says about the actual game.

Do I dislike Bioware? Yeah, kinda. I think they're sort of the fast food of RPGs - you ain't getting a masterpiece, but you'll get something proficient, easy to handle, and familiar. What I dislike is their talent for taking things in other, better games, putting them in their own games, and then being congratulated for "coming up" with the idea in the first place, all while never once giving credit or even commenting positively on other development teams. When Obsidian had their panel on player choice, they talked very positively about a lot of other development teams - that's something I've never heard Bioware do. Beyond that, it irritates me that their writing is subpar at best and at worst just copy pasting Whedonisms, and then they get massive critical acclaim.

In short, I think they tend to snub a lot of other developers while borrowing ideas, and I think they're insanely overrated. The second isn't that big of a surprise in the gaming industry though, where the name of your company means more then the quality of your game in far too many cases, but it is, like I said, irritating.

Oh and David Gaider is a goddamn hack.

BRAVE OR GRAVE!
2011-02-09, 11:49 PM
What RPGs in recent years do think are better? Genuinely curious because I can't think of many, hell even a few. Mainly because RPGs are generally mediocre.

ProfessorCirno
2011-02-09, 11:58 PM
What RPGs in recent years do think are better? Genuinely curious because I can't think of many, hell even a few. Mainly because RPGs are generally mediocre.

Alpha Protocol, The Witcher, New Vegas, to name three. Going back further brings me to Vampire: the Masquerade - Bloodlines, to give another.

Obsidian in general is either really, really on target (another example of an amazing RPG would be Mask of the Betrayer) or laughably terrible.

Nim
2011-02-10, 12:08 AM
I think DAO falls into the same pod as a few other Bioware games including ME1: it's polished and technically proficient but it doesn't really spark anything in me. It's by the books. It's mediocre. It's not bad, but it's not really that great, either.

I'll accept this as a opinion, but you've got to admit you're in the minority here.

I think DA2 will be a legit bad game, standing alongside Jade Empire and the original campaign to Neverwinter Nights.

This seems like an excessively negative picture. Jade empire is a well reviewed game that a lot of people had fun with. You might not personally like it, but the on spectrum of good and bad it falls much closer to the former than the latter.

I'll grant that the original NWN campaign was balls, but it's worth noting that the game was conviced more as a DM and module building tool.

As for hyperbolic, how so? Nothing I've said here was false. I'm not joking or making a random statement when I say that their reasoning for removing top-down view was because they wanted people to "see the ceiling," that's the reason they gave. Same with removing friendly fire completely. If you think these statements are me being hyperbolic and negative, I'm not sure what that says about the actual game.

Only they didn't remove the top down view. They've said you can pan the camera all you like on the PC and zoom out a fair bit. The only feture they've stripped out is the ability to decouple the camera from your selected character. Which isn't a big deal, since that feture didn't get used 99% of the time anyway.

"Removing friendly fire completely," is just flat out wrong. Bioware devs have stated that FF is tied to difficultly and while it may only appear on the Nightmare, it is in there.

Do I dislike Bioware? Yeah, kinda. I think they're sort of the fast food of RPGs - you ain't getting a masterpiece, but you'll get something proficient, easy to handle, and familiar. What I dislike is their talent for taking things in other, better games, putting them in their own games, and then being congratulated for "coming up" with the idea in the first place, all while never once giving credit or even commenting positively on other development teams. When Obsidian had their panel on player choice, they talked very positively about a lot of other development teams - that's something I've never heard Bioware do. Beyond that, it irritates me that their writing is subpar at best and at worst just copy pasting Whedonisms, and then they get massive critical acclaim.

Name me some RPGs made in the last ten years that had solid writing, characters and story arc while still maintaining a high standard of gameplay and overall quality? If you think Bioware is the fast food who the hell is the gourmet meal?

What fetures have they stolen from other games to anger you so? And you call their writing sub-par, but in the world of video games and even RPGs I can only come up with one or two examples of games with better.

In short, I think they tend to snub a lot of other developers while borrowing ideas, and I think they're insanely overrated. The second isn't that big of a surprise in the gaming industry though, where the name of your company means more then the quality of your game in far too many cases, but it is, like I said, irritating.

Who do they snub? How do they snub?

Oh and David Gaider is a goddamn hack.

In any other venue maybe, but this be vigeo games. Even hack writing is hard to come by. Gaider is no great scribe and his fanbase is a pack of crazed wessles, but his writing is still above par for what most games turn out.

Jay
2011-02-10, 12:10 AM
i find it hilarious that so many people are shitting all over this game before it's release. We're in the same goddamn thread where ALL of us had to eat our words two years ago.

My only issue is that the retcon of Qunari appearence is silly. It's a ntpick and something made me raise an eyebrow, nothing else.

I'm still curious about this game and will certainly pick it up at some point. the only thing keeping me from picking it up upon release is that I'm not sure my laptop could run it.

It runs the first DA okay, but if too many baddies are on screen at once, it lags a bit.

Ten
2011-02-10, 12:51 AM
Alpha Protocol, The Witcher, New Vegas, to name three. Going back further brings me to Vampire: the Masquerade - Bloodlines, to give another.

Obsidian in general is either really, really on target (another example of an amazing RPG would be Mask of the Betrayer) or laughably terrible.

Vampire the Masquerade was a buggy piece of melodramatic shit that deserves to be forgotten.

And I say that as a fan of the game.

Tortuga Mañana
2011-02-10, 12:57 AM
All RPGs are bad.

Jay
2011-02-10, 1:05 AM
Vampire the Masquerade was a buggy piece of melodramatic shit that deserves to be forgotten.

And I say that as a fan of the game.

Bloodlines owned once the bugs were fixed up.

Ten
2011-02-10, 1:08 AM
And Oblivion is a great game once you mod it to the point that it's fucking unrecognizable. What's your point?

Tortuga Mañana
2011-02-10, 1:09 AM
I liked Oblivion out of the box. I once installed a bunch of mods and thought it was essentially the same game, except slightly worse, since I wandered slightly afield and an unbeatable boar killed me.

Default_Messiah
2011-02-10, 1:21 AM
I actually will say I'm pretty much more a fan of Obsidian RPGs than Bioware's. I mean, I was one of those dudes who liked NwN2 vanilla. :¬\

Having said that, I looove Bioware, so...

Also, I get the impression that with ME2, Bioware was kind of checking notes with the quote-unquote Obsidian method of parties, where the focus is less on a (for the most part) happy and cohesive team, and more akin to a very, very dysfunctional family. One where most everyone has their own agenda or reasons beyond the game's mission for joining you.

And yeah, I think I liked Alpha Protocol more than DA too, so that probably says a lot more about my outlook on rpgs, than the rpgs themselves.

Ten
2011-02-10, 1:23 AM
I liked Oblivion out of the box. I once installed a bunch of mods and thought it was essentially the same game, except slightly worse, since I wandered slightly afield and an unbeatable boar killed me.

I like quite a few bad games myself! We should hang out sometimes.

Tortuga Mañana
2011-02-10, 1:25 AM
I don't think Oblivion is a bad game. I thought it was pretty fun for the few hours I played, before I got bored and gave up.

Ten
2011-02-10, 1:39 AM
To be fair, as soon as I got out of prison I got lost and gave up,

Sooo, yeah.

Tortuga Mañana
2011-02-10, 1:40 AM
My first mod-free time, I ignored the main quest and just adventured on my own for a while and had a lot of fun. Most difficulty mods make this noticeably more difficult - IMO even prohibitively so. I actually got mad when a boar slaughtered me about 20 yards outside of the main city. I was like, "Seriously? I just downloaded a billion gigs of Oblivion mods just to make the game less fun?" I gave up right there.

Jay
2011-02-10, 2:00 AM
And Oblivion is a great game once you mod it to the point that it's fucking unrecognizable. What's your point?

That apart from some technical shortcomings Bloodlines was an awesome game that didn't deserve to be forgotten at all.

Whereas the problem with Oblivion was in the basic design structure, art direction, story, and writing.

Wait...am I in the Skyrim thread? What's going on?

Default_Messiah
2011-02-10, 2:02 AM
It's like the heat-death of the universe. All RPG threads tend towards a state of Elder Scrolls.

Ten
2011-02-10, 2:05 AM
That apart from some technical shortcomings Bloodlines was an awesome game that didn't deserve to be forgotten at all.

Whereas the problem with Oblivion was in the basic design structure, art direction, story, and writing.

Wait...am I in the Skyrim thread? What's going on?

look i don't know about you guys but i'm really drunk

dane
2011-02-10, 3:16 AM
Vampire the Masquerade was a buggy piece of melodramatic shit that deserves to be forgotten.

And I say that as a fan of the game.

Bloodlines fucking rocked. it had more atmosphere and character than most of the run of the mill frogshit that's been churned out in recent years.

*edit* also:

don't open it

Miles Standoffish
2011-02-10, 3:27 AM
look i don't know about you guys but i'm really drunk

*gets drunk*

*writes game reviews*

*is gamespot editorial staff*

ProfessorCirno
2011-02-10, 3:29 AM
This seems like an excessively negative picture. Jade empire is a well reviewed game that a lot of people had fun with. You might not personally like it, but the on spectrum of good and bad it falls much closer to the former than the latter.

I'll grant that the original NWN campaign was balls, but it's worth noting that the game was conviced more as a DM and module building tool.

Jade Empire could've been the shittiest game ever, it would've still gotten high awards and people swearing it was amazing. Again, gaming industry cares far more about name then it does the game.

Only they didn't remove the top down view. They've said you can pan the camera all you like on the PC and zoom out a fair bit. The only feture they've stripped out is the ability to decouple the camera from your selected character. Which isn't a big deal, since that feture didn't get used 99% of the time anyway.

No. You are factually incorrect.

http://kotaku.com/#!5692653/dont-worry-dragon-age-ii-is-for-you-too

The bigger change, however, is that the game will no longer support an overhead tactical view on any platform. This was an art and combat-design decision, the BioWare rep told me today. Support for that Baldur's Gate-style view forced the artists to design rooms and scenes that didn't have important things on their ceilings and skies — which top-down players wouldn't see.

"Removing friendly fire completely," is just flat out wrong. Bioware devs have stated that FF is tied to difficultly and while it may only appear on the Nightmare, it is in there.

And their reason for it was, once again, "Our fans don't comprehend toggles of friendly fire."

http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/141/index/5490589

(Why can't it simply be a toggle?)
Because it has a profound effect on the difficulty. Hence it being attached to the difficulty.

Or that, anyhow, is what I assume. Attaching things to toggles is great, but if someone flips that on and doesn't know that it will suddenly make their "Easy" game not quite so Easy anymore... well, that wouldn't be good.

Name me some RPGs made in the last ten years that had solid writing, characters and story arc while still maintaining a high standard of gameplay and overall quality? If you think Bioware is the fast food who the hell is the gourmet meal?

I just did.

Also lol at "high standard of gameplay" when Bioware games are almost uniformly hilariously easy, and another lol to overall quality. Are we going to pretend Bioware games don't have bugs?

Mass Effect for the PC was almost unplayable for a good month if not more due to bad port issues, and while they eventually fixed that, there are still huge texture issues, and on some systems, the Mako runs at 300% speed, which they've never fixed because "we don't want to waste resources on something so trivial"

ME2 was even better, when it launched, a good 15%-30% of people were unable to progress past the medbay because an entire range of ATI cards would not accept the trigger for using things. You'd never be able to actually interact with anything, so you could never grab the pistol. Bioware took THREE months to fix it, and if you made a post about it on the Social Forums you got banned for a week, and the thread got deleted. Eventually they fixed the issue, only to bring it over to most Nvidia cards. Thankfully this was around the time most people had stopped playing, but still, it took them another month or so to fix it that time.

Of course we're talking Dragon Age, so let's not forget the mine / equipment bug in Awakening!

Alpha Protocol had what, lag in the Clearinghouse, and if you use Blur or Acceleration or something like that, you'd get odd sync lag while turning or attacking in melee, but both of these things had .ini fixes within the first week, both provided by Obsidian. New Vegas had the whole Save issue, and crashing, one of which could be solved by just saving yourself, and the other got fixed in what, three weeks? Yeah, I do rate them as being higher quality.

No more free passes. Yeah, Bioware makes good games on occasion. But they haven't made a great one that has actually advanced the genre since Baldur's Gate. You do not go to Bioware for innovation and progression. You go to them for creatively safe games that will be pleasingly solid, but artistically bland.

What fetures have they stolen from other games to anger you so? And you call their writing sub-par, but in the world of video games and even RPGs I can only come up with one or two examples of games with better.

Who do they snub? How do they snub?

Again, I've yet to hear Bioware once talk about another developing group. I could be wrong here! But again, when I read Obsidian dev logs or watch panels, they always make sure to positively reference other development teams. They've talked positively about Bioware several times about being the only other group making non-Bethesda style RPGs. It seems to be entirely one way.

It's not so much features being stolen as it is things falsely attributed to them. I can't wait to see game reviewers talk about Bioware literally inventing the idea of having allies who dislike you give you a bonus, or them creating the concept of a framed story being made from an interview between two people, just like every time KotOR 2 is talked about postively it was Bioware's game, but it's Obsidian's game every time someone doesn't like it.

In any other venue maybe, but this be vigeo games. Even hack writing is hard to come by. Gaider is no great scribe and his fanbase is a pack of crazed wessles, but his writing is still above par for what most games turn out.

Fuck that. Fuck this stupid, bullshit excuse. That's like claiming "Look movies don't need writing it's just movies. TV shows don't need actual writers it's just a TV show."

No, games should and could and in some cases DO have good writing. And that should be the standard set. If most video game writing is horrible and trite then that's a problem, we don't excuse other bad writers because they aren't "as horrible." When a movie has shit writing we call it out. Video games don't get to be "allowed" to be terrible just because they're the new kids on the block. The bar should be raised higher then that.

Miles Standoffish
2011-02-10, 3:30 AM
why I simply lol at it! *wipes brow with hankerchief*

Decius
2011-02-10, 3:43 AM
No. You are factually incorrect.

Looks very much like top-down to me:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gyR1fGMCLXo

Maybe not quite as far zoomable as in DAO and the angle seems lower, but good enough for me as PC player.

BRAVE OR GRAVE!
2011-02-10, 9:07 AM
Alpha Protocol had what, lag in the Clearinghouse, and if you use Blur or Acceleration or something like that, you'd get odd sync lag while turning or attacking in melee, but both of these things had .ini fixes within the first week, both provided by Obsidian. New Vegas had the whole Save issue, and crashing, one of which could be solved by just saving yourself, and the other got fixed in what, three weeks? Yeah, I do rate them as being higher quality.
You know I agree and respectfully disagree with the rest of your points but this is just wrong. If you're dismissing New Vegas's bugginess that easily, you're kind of blind.

Tortuga Mañana
2011-02-10, 9:24 AM
New Vegas is a huge shitpile of bugs and glitches. Virtually every review of the game mentions them in abundance, and I have personally encountered both game-breaking bugs and tons of minor cosmetic glitches.

edit: I like the game well enough but come on.

Syngyne
2011-02-10, 9:40 AM
New Vegas had the whole Save issue, and crashing, one of which could be solved by just saving yourself, and the other got fixed in what, three weeks?
There are also a whole lot of broken quest triggers, a couple of which prevent you from progressing in the main quest. I encountered the bug on two different characters where you go to the basement of the Lucky 38 to see the upgraded Securitrons, and the quest trigger never fires, so you're stuck down there.

Arcman
2011-02-10, 10:11 AM
Looks very much like top-down to me:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gyR1fGMCLXo

Maybe not quite as far zoomable as in DAO and the angle seems lower, but good enough for me as PC player.Sort of. DA:O included a tradition top-down "isometric view" (not exactly the correct term for this), and that's not going to be available in 2. It isn't the worst feature to lose, but I don't really understand the rational for removing it as a feature in the first place.

Human
2011-02-10, 10:16 AM
They wanted to stop making Baldur's Gate fans happy.

Nim
2011-02-10, 10:19 AM
Jade Empire could've been the shittiest game ever, it would've still gotten high awards and people swearing it was amazing. Again, gaming industry cares far more about name then it does the game.

Only all the of aggregate review sites also have high "User Rating" scores, often higher than the actual critical scores. So either Bioware paid a bunch of poeple to praise a five year old game or a lot, lot of people enjoyed the hell out of it. It's not you kind of RPG, fine. You don't like the style or the writing, fine. But trying to call it an objectively bad game is just wrong.

No. You are factually incorrect.

http://kotaku.com/#!5692653/dont-worry-dragon-age-ii-is-for-you-too (http://kotaku.com/#%215692653/dont-worry-dragon-age-ii-is-for-you-too)


Nope, look at that video posted. You can zoom out and pan the camera up.

And their reason for it was, once again, "Our fans don't comprehend toggles of friendly fire."

http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/141/index/5490589


Don't move the goal posts, you said "No friendly fire," I said, "No look, there's friendly fire." You cannot now say "it doesn't work the way I want it to!"

I just did.

Yeah, I missed that post. I'd grant that all of those games had excellent writing. I think weather or not you feel any of them have better writing than any given Bioware game is mostly a matter of taste. What isn't a matter of taste or opinion is that all of those games had crippling, game shattering bugs at release. Hell Bloodlines is almost unplayable still if you don't utilize some of the fan produced patches.

I've loved many a flawed RPG, but playing any of the games you listed felt like wrestling a 300 pound gorilla for the privlage of enjoying them. Each had deeply flawed gameplay mechanics or huge QA issues or both.

Also lol at "high standard of gameplay" when Bioware games are almost uniformly hilariously easy, and another lol to overall quality. Are we going to pretend Bioware games don't have bugs?

Mass Effect for the PC was almost unplayable for a good month if not more due to bad port issues, and while they eventually fixed that, there are still huge texture issues, and on some systems, the Mako runs at 300% speed, which they've never fixed because "we don't want to waste resources on something so trivial"

ME2 was even better, when it launched, a good 15%-30% of people were unable to progress past the medbay because an entire range of ATI cards would not accept the trigger for using things. You'd never be able to actually interact with anything, so you could never grab the pistol. Bioware took THREE months to fix it, and if you made a post about it on the Social Forums you got banned for a week, and the thread got deleted. Eventually they fixed the issue, only to bring it over to most Nvidia cards. Thankfully this was around the time most people had stopped playing, but still, it took them another month or so to fix it that time.

Of course we're talking Dragon Age, so let's not forget the mine / equipment bug in Awakening!

Alpha Protocol had what, lag in the Clearinghouse, and if you use Blur or Acceleration or something like that, you'd get odd sync lag while turning or attacking in melee, but both of these things had .ini fixes within the first week, both provided by Obsidian. New Vegas had the whole Save issue, and crashing, one of which could be solved by just saving yourself, and the other got fixed in what, three weeks? Yeah, I do rate them as being higher quality.

No more free passes. Yeah, Bioware makes good games on occasion. But they haven't made a great one that has actually advanced the genre since Baldur's Gate. You do not go to Bioware for innovation and progression. You go to them for creatively safe games that will be pleasingly solid, but artistically bland.

If you are going to sit there and say that Obsidian games have a higher, or even equivalent level of quality, QA and polish to Bioware's products I just do not know what you say to you.

Again, I've yet to hear Bioware once talk about another developing group. I could be wrong here! But again, when I read Obsidian dev logs or watch panels, they always make sure to positively reference other development teams. They've talked positively about Bioware several times about being the only other group making non-Bethesda style RPGs. It seems to be entirely one way.

It's not so much features being stolen as it is things falsely attributed to them. I can't wait to see game reviewers talk about Bioware literally inventing the idea of having allies who dislike you give you a bonus, or them creating the concept of a framed story being made from an interview between two people, just like every time KotOR 2 is talked about postively it was Bioware's game, but it's Obsidian's game every time someone doesn't like it.

I don't read any of Bioware's dev blogs or forums really so I have no idea if they hand out props to other developers, but I guess I just don't get how failing to praise your competition reflects poorly on a company. Obsidian has thrown some love to Bioware, super. I don't see why Bioware not reciprocating makes them assholes.

And ok, so now it's just falsely attributed to them, how is that Bioware's fault? If a reviewer on some backwater site gives them credit for something they didn't do first do you expect Bioware to fire off an E-mail and clear things up? If some neckbeards on some forum can't keep stright who produced KotOR 2 how is that any responsiblity of Bioware's?

Fuck that. Fuck this stupid, bullshit excuse. That's like claiming "Look movies don't need writing it's just movies. TV shows don't need actual writers it's just a TV show."

No, games should and could and in some cases DO have good writing. And that should be the standard set. If most video game writing is horrible and trite then that's a problem, we don't excuse other bad writers because they aren't "as horrible." When a movie has shit writing we call it out. Video games don't get to be "allowed" to be terrible just because they're the new kids on the block. The bar should be raised higher then that.

Only it's not, I'm sorry but so many video games have such comically bad writing that it does indeed lower the bar to the point where average writing is viewed throgh a more favorable lense. You can want that you change, but wanting won't make it happen.

And for the record, I think Bioware games have good writing, even Gaider. He's not great, but he can do decent dialogue and plotting.

Nim
2011-02-10, 10:27 AM
Sort of. DA:O included a tradition top-down "isometric view" (not exactly the correct term for this), and that's not going to be available in 2. It isn't the worst feature to lose, but I don't really understand the rational for removing it as a feature in the first place.

They wanted to stop making Baldur's Gate fans happy.

Thing is, all the "isometric view" in DA: O did was lock camera pan once you hit max zoom, it was clunky and pretty useless. Unless they wanted to go whole hog with an unlocked BG style camera I don't see a problem with trimming it down to pan and zoom while locked on the currently selected character. That's the camera control I used 95% of the time while playing Dragon Age.

Arcman
2011-02-10, 10:40 AM
Well, if you disliked that view that's cool for you, but that opinion is hardly universal. A lot of folks preferred isometric for tactics and issuing orders. Personally I'm not vested too much one way or the other, but when the developer was asked why they were abandoning it as an option one of the reasons given was, "Now, the game mainly sold on console, so we're going the way of the audience." Not exactly a trend I'm happy to see.

Nim
2011-02-10, 10:43 AM
I tend to agree, but the option for it in DA: O was vestigial and poorly implemented. Provided the camera pans out to a reasonable distance I don't see an issue.

AKBoarder
2011-02-10, 1:23 PM
vestigial and poorly implemented.

This is pro word use, just wanted to draw attention to it.

Archangel3d
2011-02-10, 1:55 PM
Indeed. Vestigial is le mot juste for the isometric in DA. Well said.

Default_Messiah
2011-02-12, 8:32 AM
Oooh!

http://www.livestream.com/electronicarts/video?clipId=pla_e1af7357-aff9-4758-b744-c98a28fb5806&utm_source=lslibrary&utm_medium=ui-thumb

Gryphon
2011-02-12, 11:29 AM
I like what they did with the buffs, having the effects show only in combat so you're not constantly dripping and flashing is nice change. Also once again, DA2 follows DA: O in being one of the few games that makes me want to play a mage.

Nim
2011-02-13, 11:50 AM
Early review out from PC Gamer UK, they gave it a 94/100. That's pretty encouraging, PCG UK tends to have fairly even handed reviews.

ProfessorCirno
2011-02-13, 3:06 PM
Early review out from PC Gamer UK, they gave it a 94/100. That's pretty encouraging, PCG UK tends to have fairly even handed reviews.

Yes, only two points above the esteemed and beloved Deus Ex 2: Invisible War ;p

Nim
2011-02-13, 3:34 PM
Do I need to bold and underline the words "tends to" and "fairly" in my post?

Greatbob Umber
2011-02-13, 5:09 PM
No, a review of a game that came out eight years ago tells it ALL

ProfessorCirno
2011-02-13, 5:41 PM
My apologies - it was meant tongue in cheek.

Nonetheless, I tend to be weary at best of reviews in the gaming industry.

Nim
2011-02-13, 5:56 PM
Of course, even the best review sites should be taken with a grain of salt. Just meant that in general PC Gamer UK has a decent track record of giving games the scores they deserve.

The Giant Bomb thread I found on the subject (http://www.giantbomb.com/dragon-age-ii/61-30995/pc-gamer-uk-review-94/35-481254/?),

Huh, I was really expecting it to get a lower score than that. If anyone's interested I'll read it through and see if they say anything interesting.

EDIT: first thing that grabs me is that the screenshots look *very* different to the console shots/footage I've seen so far - hard to put my finger on how but it just looks much more like Dragon Age and less like a cartoon.

"upwards of 50 hours to finish"
"For all it's size and wonder, Origins didnt make full use of its fascinating world. Dragon Age 2 does it right."
"Outside of a few trips to the Deep Roads and a saunter to a Dalish camp, everything in Dragon Age 2 happens in Kirkwall."
"So many games promise real choice but fail to deliver. Dragon Age 2 is the most impressive attempt I've seen to make the decisions players make in a game mean something,"
"DA 2's romantic options unconstrained. You meet a party member, chances are you can bone them (your sibling is one fortunate exception)" - goes on to imply man-love is in.
"Dragon Age 2's incidental conversations are splended: ruder, funnier, and just plain better than Origins"
"Origins free battlefield camera is gone, but a mousewheel scroll gives the zoom you need to see the full field of play"
"Dragon Age 2 is not what you expect (...) I hadn't anticipated it being this much of a traditional sequel"

-Story told through flashbacks (I think we knew that?) and spans a 10 year period
-Conversation options are saintly, aggressive and cheeky (I shit you not)
-Apparently no alignment or karma meter
-Tough moral choices need making, choices have outcomes etc
-Seems like a lot of focus is on the political situation in Kirkwall, factions etc ("Make your allegiances clear and you'll change the whole course of the game")
- Party characters are generally excellent with one slight dud, the sibling character.

Not a whole lot else mentioned that isn't already well known I don't think.

Bolding mine, if those bits hold true than I'm hopeful.

Also, hearing that the majority of the game takes place inside a single city is interesting.

ProfessorCirno
2011-02-13, 6:15 PM
I was asked elsewhere about my thoughts on this same topic and made what I believe is referred to as a "Nick post" and thought that maybe pasting it here would help clear things up a bit.

Hey, real quick. Name 10 games that get, in your opinion an "A" or "B+" grade. I don't want to tear 'em down or anything. I just want to see where your taste lies.

Sticking to just PC, and to just ten...

Planescape: Torment
Fallout
New Vegas
Mask of the Betrayer
Alpha Protocol
Alpha Centauri
"Ultima series" though I'd not count the last two
Deus Ex
System Shock 2
The Void

There's a lot more then that, and a whole lot more if I count console games.

As for Jade Empire? It was one of Bioware's weaker efforts. Doesn't mean the game wasn't fun or entertaining. Just like middling episode of a terrific TV show or a so-so offering by a great novelist these efforts are sub-par for name creating them but still better than plenty of others in the same industry.

I don't mind games that are just fun time wasters. They're the ones that generally get "C to B" in my books, but shit, a C is a passing grade. I know they can't all be classics, but that's frankly what the A games should be. When every game is 90+ AAA then it has zero meaning.

A game that rates a high 70 or low 80 in my personal books is still one worth playing. Rating scores are utterly meaningless - there's only two scores, 90+ or "everything else." For me, a game that in my view is a solid C means that it's fun and wastes time well enough, but I probably won't play through it twice or think back on it with nostalgia or huge amounts of fondness. A C game is a toy, which is fine.

For me, Jade Empire wasn't even a C, because I honestly didn't find it all that fun. Most Bioware games are in that C-B range; they're fun and they kill time, but not much else. This is what I think is something the gaming industry and fanbase has completely forgotten - there's a spot between "game of the year all years" and "Unplayable garbage."

And I still have yet to hear your measuring stick for quality besides your own opinion.If it hasn't yet been apparent, I'm one of those pissant "games can be art" douchebags http://www.circvsmaximvs.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif. I don't have any one single solid "metric," I measure games as I see them. A game with good writing will win me over far faster then a game with good graphics. Let's look at my ten that I listed. Typically there's very good and intelligent writing, very strong characterization (if the game has alternate characters), very strong immersion and, most importantly, they all try to be games. PS:T gets a lot of slack for being a book, but that's because people think the combat is the gameplay. It's not - the dialogue is the gameplay, and with the multitude of different avenues in the game, you can play it several times and still find things you missed earlier.

One of my biggest issues with a lot of modern games is the overwhelming linearity and focus on being "cinematic." The problem with this is that you're killing the biggest advantage of making a game - namely, allowing the player to change things. Oblivion is perhaps one of the worst offenders here, in that you couldn't change a single goddamn thing in the game at all. Your choices are limited to "Do you accept the quest now or later," and nothing else.

Now, that isn't to say linearity itself is bad. Linearity is good so long as the game still makes use of it's strengths. My example here would be Silent Hill 2. There's no branching storyline or dialogue trees, it's a linear game, but, it utilizes so many other parts of "being a game" so well. Silent Hill 2 has a style of suspense you could not get in any movie or book.

Likewise, The Void is fairly linear. But it's also probably the most immersive game I've ever played. In no other game have I had to actively take breaks from playing it because I was in it too deep, to the point of seriously changing my mood. In The Void, the mechanics of the gameplay and the way the immersiveness and story go blend together perfectly; there's never any dissociation.

Hopefully that giant mound of WORDS WORDS WORDS helps answer the question.

Nim
2011-02-13, 6:32 PM
See, I agree with pretty much all of that post, except the part where Bioware doesn't make the cut above the B grade.

If you don't like one of their games, feel it's over rated or poorly written that's cool, your bag. But you've got to accept that you're in the minority here and you seem to have a fair bit of hostility for people who don't agree and keep insisting that Bioware games are awesome.

Weirdo
2011-02-13, 6:42 PM
I've never found a numerical ranking all that effective for me, and I do agree with the sentiment on how they can be broken into a 90+ and everything else division.

Don't Tread on Steve
2011-02-13, 6:54 PM
I was pretty hesitant about this game due to the rejection of the traditional RPG aspects that the original was all about, but the mix of the focus on a single city and what is being said about choices having impact makes me interested again.

Jobrill
2011-02-14, 5:22 PM
No Varric romance. Game will officially suck.

ProfessorCirno
2011-02-14, 8:44 PM
New screenshots! And uh...

Vaguely safe for work sorta (http://i.imgur.com/rzX3o.jpg)

UH...

Mildly NSFW (http://i.imgur.com/ns37W.jpg)

UH.

Oh god no. (http://i.imgur.com/WnTHa.jpg)

:aaa:

Ten
2011-02-14, 9:31 PM
I was pretty hesitant about this game due to the rejection of the traditional RPG aspects that the original was all about, but the mix of the focus on a single city and what is being said about choices having impact makes me interested again.

Aw, man. Don't fall for this again.

It's the Bioware version of "Hey, baby I promise this time things will be different."

Don't Tread on Steve
2011-02-14, 9:34 PM
Admittedly the original Dragon Age did a poor job of it except with the climax being kinda interesting, but Bioware's had enough successes that I don't think they're comparable to an abusive spouse. :shy:

Default_Messiah
2011-02-14, 9:37 PM
Admittedly the original Dragon Age did a poor job of it except with the climax being kinda interesting, but Bioware's had enough successes that I don't think they're comparable to an abusive spouse. :shy:

Steve.

Steve.

It's okay, you're with friends; we're here to help. The next time Bioware calls you, just put that phone down.

Ten
2011-02-14, 9:54 PM
Admittedly the original Dragon Age did a poor job of it except with the climax being kinda interesting, but Bioware's had enough successes that I don't think they're comparable to an abusive spouse. :shy:

I love Bioware! But the phrase "this time your choices actually matter!" has always been bullshit and I will be completely surprised if they have the balls to actually do it this time.

Kickflip Jones
2011-02-14, 10:26 PM
lol did someone really use a 0-100 rating from some magazine as proof that this game is good. really. really. halo 2 has like a 95% on metacritic or some stupid bullshit

Nim
2011-02-14, 10:50 PM
New screenshots! And uh...

Vaguely safe for work sorta (http://i.imgur.com/rzX3o.jpg)

UH...

Mildly NSFW (http://i.imgur.com/ns37W.jpg)

UH.

Oh god no. (http://i.imgur.com/WnTHa.jpg)

:aaa:

Looking forward to the underwear sex and jerky character animations. The sex scenes in DA: O were some of the most unintentionally funny moments in gaming history.

Also, is it just me or does female Hawke look off? Her clothed screen shots don't look nearly that stacked.

lol did someone really use a 0-100 rating from some magazine as proof that this game is good. really. really. halo 2 has like a 95% on metacritic or some stupid bullshit

Killyourself.

ProfessorCirno
2011-02-14, 11:12 PM
Looking forward to the underwear sex and jerky character animations. The sex scenes in DA: O were some of the most unintentionally funny moments in gaming history.

Also, is it just me or does female Hawke look off? Her clothed screen shots don't look nearly that stacked.

As horrifying as the gigantic anime tits are, the one with the lolicon elf is the most disturbing.

Ten
2011-02-14, 11:15 PM
As horrifying as the gigantic anime tits are, the one with the lolicon elf is the most disturbing.

And apparently has pink eye.

Don't Tread on Steve
2011-02-14, 11:17 PM
I love Bioware! But the phrase "this time your choices actually matter!" has always been bullshit and I will be completely surprised if they have the balls to actually do it this time.

I wouldn't say it is complete bullshit. Obviously with the vast expenses involved in voice acting and art direction and stuff the narrative is going to be locked into a set path, but games like Mass Effect or especially (non bioware) Alpha Protocol have done really impressive work in giving the player the sense that their choices within the preset narrative have significance. This kind of feature has been getting steadily better and bioware has been the major developer pushing it.

Nim
2011-02-14, 11:19 PM
Obsidian does a lot too, but they don't get a fraction of the attention that Bioware does.

Ten
2011-02-14, 11:22 PM
While I enjoy the customizable gaming experience Bioware and similar developers have provided in the games, I don't think we've reached a point where choices have anything more then a cosmetic effect on games.

This isn't a bad thing. I love that these games provide a chance for me to customize my character's personality in game (albeit, in a limited form) and I wish that the developers would actually take greater steps in that direction by tying the idea of moral choices and dialogue options as a form of customization rather then a very forced and restricting game mechanic.

But I deny that any of these choices actually matter. I don't think it's really their fault, as you said they're limited due to the realistic technology available. But I think that claiming that "this time your choices matter" in your marketing is fairly misleading and has yet to be true in any game.

ProfessorCirno
2011-02-14, 11:26 PM
I'd say Obsidian is a million times better then Bioware at it, with Alpha Protocol being almost absurd in how many different narrative ways you can play the game to have completely alternate endings or situations.

What Bioware does is give you one quest line, and then at the end you can have the "jerk" ending or the "not a jerk" ending, and that's just about it. There aren't even branching paths, nine times out of ten.

Nim
2011-02-14, 11:26 PM
While I enjoy the customizable gaming experience Bioware and similar developers have provided in the games, I don't think we've reached a point where choices have anything more then a cosmetic effect on games.

This isn't a bad thing. I love that these games provide a chance for me to customize my character's personality in game (albeit, in a limited form) and I wish that the developers would actually take greater steps in that direction by tying the idea of moral choices and dialogue options as a form of customization rather then a very forced and restricting game mechanic.

But I deny that any of these choices actually matter. I don't think it's really their fault, as you said they're limited due to the realistic technology available. But I think that claiming that "this time your choices matter" in your marketing is fairly misleading and has yet to be true in any game.

Well, "matter" is an issue of context and opinion. What level of freedom would a game need to provide to meet that threshold for you?

Ten
2011-02-14, 11:33 PM
I have zero interest in Alpha Protocol, so I'll have to take your word for it.

I'm not being a jerk there either. Even though it sounds like it. I just can't stand Alpha Protocol's genre enough to play it. No fault of the game itself.

Don't Tread on Steve
2011-02-14, 11:37 PM
I cannot tell ten and cirno apart with this pony avatar thing :I

Nim
2011-02-14, 11:41 PM
Looks it's easy. One has Rainbow Hair, one has a Rainbow in her hair. Duh!

UngorEatStefan
2011-02-14, 11:42 PM
Let's revisit some things from Dragon Age: Your Choices Don't Matter

A game in which you can not have any party members join you. You can kill, fail to recruit or force out: Alistair, Wynne, Morrigan, Zevran, Leilana, Sten, Dog (if you don't do the human origin), Oghren and I'm unsure about Shale. [spoiler]

Also bonus don't forget during the [spoiler] scene in which you have people vote for your side or Loghrain's side. How different people you've worked with and helped (or not helped and worked with) will speak up or against your behalf.

Or how dialogue changes based on your actions

Or how multiple party members can sacrifice themselves at the end, or not sacrifice themselves at all

I mean come on, it's one thing to not like the game but to say the choices you make in the game are devoid of meaning and are just an illusion is demonstrably false.

Don't Tread on Steve
2011-02-14, 11:47 PM
The voting council bit in Dragon Age was awesome

Nim
2011-02-14, 11:49 PM
I tend to agree, I personally felt like I had a pretty wide range of choice in DA: O and it wasn't always just "be super jesus" or "be mecha hitler." But I think Ten just sets the bar higher. The only modern games I can think of that approach the kind of level she's talking about are Vampire: Bloodlines and maybe Alpha Protocol.

Yunara
2011-02-15, 12:15 AM
Their complaints Stefan is that while it changes the cosmetics details of where you end up, you end up the same place.

Which party members you have with you is cosmetic.

Which people side with you, winning the argument, or failing miserably all lead to the same conclusion, the only difference is the difficulty of the fight. Again, cosmetic really cause you can change the difficulty of the fight in the menu.

All dialogue is mostly cosmetic, with the exception of MAYBE unlocking abilities ones.

The ending itself has a couple options yes, but it's one giant branch that leads you to it. If your choices mattered more then maybe the last battle could happen at Denerim, or at Orzamar, or in the Brecilian forest supported by the elves, or even if you recruited no one as a last ditch siege as you get surrounded at Redcliffe.

And by branching quests, that means having your actions have immediate and actual consequences. If you kill all the elves and save the werewolves, maybe that makes everyone else distrust you, and you now never end up going to Orzamar or the Circle. Perhaps the Werewolves tell you of some pressing matter in the Frostback mountains, and you end up going there and by the time you return, Orzamar has been overrun. But that's ok, because you found some different clan of dwarves in the mountains, or better yet, you betrayed them too and came back with an army of trolls or something.

If you can make a save game near the end of the game then reload and see all the endings by making a couple quick difference choices, then all your choices really didn't matter did they?

Ten
2011-02-15, 12:23 AM
I'll admit I set the bar pretty high and it gets hard for me to put into words what I want out of "meaningful choices". Ultimately, I think that while we're certainly getting closer the changes are pretty cosmetic.

It makes little difference to the game who's in your party and who you sacrifice. What choices you make seem to make little difference. You still walk the same path. You still see the same things.

To use a terrible analogy, these choices don't feel like I get to choose my room. Just how I want to decorate it.

Again, not a bad thing. Just kind of a nitpick that bugs me about how these games are advertised.

Nim
2011-02-15, 12:29 AM
So far as the advertising goes I think it's generally accepted by the audience that all choice in CRPGs happens within some constraints. When people read the blrub, "choice matters" I don't think anyone expects or takes it to mean the kind of freedom you'd have in say a P&P RPG.

Bloodlines is probably the most open ended story driven RPG since the 2d era and even it struck many of the same cords no matter what path you chose. Your choices do matter, but of course they'll only matter within the limited range the game can offer.

Miles Standoffish
2011-02-15, 7:54 AM
dragon age 3: adaptive neural network

UngorEatStefan
2011-02-15, 7:55 AM
Yunara I don't think what you want in a CRPG is even close to happening.

And even if that DID happen in your hypothetical game - aren't the changes still mostly cosmetic? Ok you didn't get the dwarves under the mountain in the final battle...you got dwarfs under a different mountain.

Also how is the dialogue cosmetic?

Chrono-Synclastic
2011-02-15, 9:25 AM
I watched my girlfriend play through most of the game, and I too found it to be fairly restricted.

The dialogue is cosmetic because I think you can see right through every option. Say this she joins, say this she refuses, say this you kill her. I think the issue of depth is resolved when you don't have a clear understanding of the mechanisms at play. Knowing option "a" does this, "b" this, and so on, really disrupts immersion for me.

I also think I played Shenmue way too much as a kid, because whenever I see games that are supposed to be "alive" real worlds, they absolutely pale in comparison.

Sprint
2011-02-15, 9:29 AM
Any amount of Shenmue is too much

Unless you are training to work in a warehouse or something

It's not like you should need to practice at tedium

UngorEatStefan
2011-02-15, 9:30 AM
I found the dart minigame in Dragon Age to be lacking

Chrono-Synclastic
2011-02-15, 9:30 AM
Yeah I mean there's plenty of absurd moments in Shenmue.

But it definitely broke ground in so many ways.

Sprint
2011-02-15, 9:52 AM
like box stacking

Nim
2011-02-15, 11:12 AM
Huh, I'm watching the live chat (http://www.livestream.com/electronicarts/video?clipId=pla_e1af7357-aff9-4758-b744-c98a28fb5806&utm_source=lslibrary&utm_medium=ui-thumb/) recording and the day/night cycle is a toggle on the map screen, neat.

ProfessorCirno
2011-02-15, 11:45 AM
You know how I made comments on how Bioware's writing is just really shitty Whedonisms copy pasted? Well, uh.

I now mean it literally. (http://www.kotaku.com.au/2011/02/felicia-day-seeks-redemption-in-dragon-age/)

Fancy watching Felicia Day floundering around in a live action show based on the Dragon Age universe? At this stage, I’m not sure, but it’s happening regardless! According to USA Today, a six part web series will be shown later this year called Dragon Age: Redemption, and will start Felicia as a “headstrong” Elven Assassin. “Tallis is headstrong, she fights dirty, and she has a really sarcastic sense of humor,” said Day. “I wanted to bring a modern sensibility to a fantasy character in a fantasy world.”
Apparently the series revolves around a quest to find a “renegade magician”. Bioware big chief, Greg Zeschuk is convinced that Felicia has enough knowledge and passion for gaming to do the Dragon Age universe justice.
“We are really, really excited to work with people like her who have a passion and appreciation for the content and a really good history of quality, claimed Zeschuk. “That’s who we want to work with.”


This is Syfy levels of production value (http://i.imgur.com/j5m1N.jpg)

UngorEatStefan
2011-02-15, 11:47 AM
Is that a Whedon series I'm unfamiliar with or does having a female character who is sarcastic and headstrong automatically become a Joss Whedon rip off :confused:

Nim
2011-02-15, 11:48 AM
How does a web series count as, "mainstream exposure?"

Nim
2011-02-15, 11:48 AM
Is that a Whedon series I'm unfamiliar with or does having a female character who is sarcastic and headstrong automatically become a Joss Whedon rip off :confused:

Felicia Day is in a lot of Whedon's stuff.

It's not really a rip off and he's being very glib, but the story is still pretty funny.

UngorEatStefan
2011-02-15, 11:51 AM
Yeah I guess being in Buffy and Dr. Horrible means she's just a Whedon character all the time

Jobrill
2011-02-15, 11:53 AM
I am willing to give this a chance because I like Felicia Day!

I am not sure whether to be jealous that ME doesn't get this level of merch and tie-ins, or smug that it doesn't need them, tho.

Miles Standoffish
2011-02-15, 11:54 AM
You know how I made comments on how Bioware's writing is just really shitty Whedonisms copy pasted? Well, uh.

I now mean it literally. (http://www.kotaku.com.au/2011/02/felicia-day-seeks-redemption-in-dragon-age/)



This is Syfy levels of production value (http://i.imgur.com/j5m1N.jpg)

your posting in this thread is a joss whedon ripoff

Drascus
2011-02-15, 11:58 AM
How does a web series count as, "mainstream exposure?"

This was my question. Felicia is cool and all, but she's not 'mainstream' at all.

Arcman
2011-02-15, 11:59 AM
Felicia Day doing stuff like, I dunno, The Guild, has nothing to do with it. It all just goes back to Whedon. You know. Somehow.

I am willing to give this a chance because I like Felicia Day!

I am not sure whether to be jealous that ME doesn't get this level of merch and tie-ins, or smug that it doesn't need them, tho.Yeah, it sounds a bit sketchy but I'd be willing to give it a shot. I've watched the guild and liked it enough for that much.

ProfessorCirno
2011-02-15, 12:47 PM
It's a mix of Day being fairly well known for being in everything Whedon has done and the fact that D Gaider has flat out admitted that most his characters are literally ripped straight out of Whedon shows. Guy is a massive fanboy.

It's a perfect storm of "snark" and "squee."

Phantom
2011-02-15, 12:57 PM
Yeah I guess being in Buffy and Dr. Horrible means she's just a Whedon character all the time
You forgot Dollhouse!

Just like the viewers did.

bobsmyuncle
2011-02-15, 1:04 PM
This is Syfy levels of production value (http://i.imgur.com/j5m1N.jpg)
That's an insult to Syfy, that photo looks like a fan film in someone's backyard.

AKBoarder
2011-02-15, 2:02 PM
That's an insult to Syfy, that photo looks like a fan film in someone's backyard.

Fucking seriously. Shit is terrible.

Nim
2011-02-15, 2:43 PM
Getting paid to LARP must be nice.

Don't Tread on Steve
2011-02-15, 3:45 PM
everything is cosmetic

Weirdo
2011-02-15, 5:02 PM
I'd call dialogue cosmetic if you're in one of those bullshit dialogue trees where the responses are always the same no matter what you pick (oh and you get +1 to evilness for being a dick or w/e).

I'm sure there are times where that works fairly well, but it has been with Bioware since Baldur's Gate and is a pet peeve of mine.

Yunara
2011-02-15, 6:08 PM
Yunara I don't think what you want in a CRPG is even close to happening.

And even if that DID happen in your hypothetical game - aren't the changes still mostly cosmetic? Ok you didn't get the dwarves under the mountain in the final battle...you got dwarfs under a different mountain.

Also how is the dialogue cosmetic?

I know it isn't close to happening, and it isn't even necessarily what I want. But in order for the choices to really matter, it would need to drastically alter the story.

I know getting different dwarves was a bad example, but what about something like you mess up your first choice and "oops" there goes Ferelden. Instead you head of to Orlais, and try your luck there. The ultimate goal needs to be somewhat similar in that there has to be a main antagonist. So ultimately the game would have to lead to you killing the Dragon, but the story and the end results could be so much different. Maybe the entire continent is lost instead of just the main city of one province.

No matter what you did, in the end you would defeat the Dragon at a ransacked Denerim. Plus, besides overall story arc, there could be so much more chance for lasting repercussions in smaller arcs as well. Maybe rescuing Sten could lead to a while story arc involving solving his crime, and why he did it. But no, Just cryptic idle chat. Maybe leaving him to die in the cage results in some fool releasing him as the hordes come, and you later get tied up in solving yet another murder by him.

The problem is that the most any of your choices did was result in a few extra lines of dialogue, if instead choices opened up full questlines to explore, some of them mutually exclusive, that would feel like your choices mattered much more.

Drascus
2011-02-15, 6:15 PM
Yeah. Meaningful choice would close off some opportunities and open others, not just give you a slightly different bit of dialogue on the way to the same destination. That gives you the opportunity to role-play, but your story is still on rails, and your choices will not influence it, only your relationships (barely), and what you hear/read during the game.

Arcman
2011-02-15, 6:28 PM
...Maybe rescuing Sten could lead to a while story arc involving solving his crime, and why he did it. But no, Just cryptic idle chat. uhhhhhhhh
You're talking about the crime he was imprisoned for originally? That he describes to you in total detail once his approval rating is high enough, and opens up a new quest?

UngorEatStefan
2011-02-15, 6:33 PM
Well he didn't chat with Sten because all dialogue is cosmetic

Arcman
2011-02-15, 6:44 PM
Seriously, did you do any of the companion quests? The only way to open them up was to actually engage in your characters through dialog, and to gain their approval. Most of the characters had one.

Miles Standoffish
2011-02-15, 6:50 PM
Seriously, did you do any of the companion quests? The only way to open them up was to actually engage in your characters through dialog, and to gain their approval. Most of the characters had one.

but if you will recall your choice of companions was cosmeticoasdfsdfasdl;fj

Yunara
2011-02-15, 8:18 PM
I'll admit, I never got Sten's, because he was boring as fuck, but if it was like any of the other companion quests, it meant nothing, and did nothing. Let me guess, you got some random piece of loot, you got a tiny bit of back story which was hamfistedly thrown in your face, and at some future point in the game, Sten says a couple different words.

I bet the entirety of the quest was go to some location, talk to/convince/kill some person in 5 dialogue lines or less, and done.

Don't Tread on Steve
2011-02-15, 8:29 PM
what exactly is it you want out of a game aside from being able to have the final battle in completely random illogical places

White Tyger
2011-02-15, 9:29 PM
If I was to watch a Dragon's Age web series, I'll stick to Warden's Fall

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRVTl2ii8BM

Series LINK: http://www.youtube.com/show?p=NKSv7Sig3y8

Kamileon
2011-02-15, 11:40 PM
We should talk more about how to fix my problem with Dragon Age crashing, just sayin'.

Nim
2011-02-15, 11:50 PM
What's the issue you're having?

Kamileon
2011-02-15, 11:53 PM
Alright.

So, two things have changed since I last played DA:O.

1. I reinstalled Windows 7 64 bit.
2. I added RAM.

Otherwise my hardware is the same: 8800 GTS, Intel E8400. This is what I played DA:O on before.

I reinstalled it, and was going to play again some, but now it's crashing on launch. I've googled and found others with the same issue, the 8800 GTS seems to be a common theme. I haven't found any actual solution.

Has anyone had this issue and found anything that works?

Things I have done:
1. Reinstalled Dragon Age
2. Installed the newest video card drivers
3. Run DXdiag
4. Reinstalled DX9.0C
5. Reinstalled a few different VCRedists I saw people linking as issues
6. Run as an administrator in various ways (steam itself, the launcher, the direct game .exe)
7. Run in Compatibility mode (Various versions of Windows, incl. XPSP2)
8. Changed video settings, windows mode on and off, vsync on and off, high and low settings.
9. Set the affinity on the launcher to a single core, game crashes too fast to do anything else.
10. Reverted to older video card drivers I had an installer for on my HD
11. A thing where I moved the .ncf files from Steam and had it redownload some stuff, per another troubleshooting thing with DA:O crashing.

Welp.

^

Nim
2011-02-15, 11:58 PM
Is it crashing at the launcher or once you click "play?"

Nim
2011-02-16, 12:06 AM
Something you might try is using -dx9 to force DirectX 9.

So for example: "C:\Program Files (x86)\Dragon Age\DAOriginsLauncher.exe" -dx9 in the shortcut. Or just tack it on using Steam's launch options.

Kamileon
2011-02-16, 12:13 AM
Hit play, get the little dialogue box, for the program or launcher options, etc. I see the little Dragon Age splash. When it switches to fullscreen (or launches the game window) it goes not responding and gets killed by windows. It never gets so far as actually displaying the in-game menu screen.

Edit:

And forcing dx9 didn't help.

Nim
2011-02-16, 12:15 AM
Hmm and no luck using -dx9?

Balls.

Kamileon
2011-02-16, 12:34 AM
Yeah, I'm sort of tapped out for what the hell is the problem.

Tortuga Mañana
2011-02-16, 1:04 AM
PS:T gets a lot of slack for being a book, but that's because people think the combat is the gameplay. It's not - the dialogue is the gameplaySo what is the combat

Human
2011-02-16, 1:07 AM
the dialog

The Lazarus
2011-02-17, 1:12 AM
http://www.latenightwithjimmyfallon.com/video/felicia-day-2-16-11/1295315
4min in has the trailer

Nim
2011-02-17, 7:59 PM
So, I'm working on a play through to take into DA2 cause all my old saves are missing and I've got a question.

What happens if both Loghain and Alistair (as king) live? I.E. Harden Alistair and marry him to Anora, keep Loghain alive and also accept Morrigan's deal?

gamerk2
2011-02-18, 7:01 AM
What happens if both Loghain and Alistair (as king) live? I.E. Harden Alistair and marry him to Anora, keep Loghain alive and also accept Morrigan's deal?

I've been wondering that myself. From what I've read, Alistair will remain as king, but I haven't heard how Logain plays into things...

bobsmyuncle
2011-02-18, 11:00 AM
Loghain becomes a recruiter of sorts for the Wardens in Ferelden (and later Orlais), Alistair does his usual king stuff. They don't try to kill each other or anything, though I imagine holidays are awkward.

How well Alistair does at ruling depends on whether you harden him during his personal quest. If so, he will apply himself to matters of law and actually ruling. If not, he hands things off to his advisers or Anora if they're married, and spends his time making popular appearances.

Killjoy
2011-02-18, 12:33 PM
Any decision that does not involve marrying Anora yourself and becoming the King consort is a bad decision.

Nim
2011-02-18, 12:38 PM
I thought only human nobles could marry her?

fakedit: And why would I want to be king of some backwater?

Killjoy
2011-02-18, 12:42 PM
I thought only human nobles could marry her?
This is correct, which means that playing anything other than a human noble is also a bad decision!

(I'm kidding around)

Nim
2011-02-18, 12:43 PM
Human nobles can't freeze people solid or light them on fire, so na.

Kamileon
2011-02-18, 3:21 PM
I was a badass elf, made Alistair king, AND convinced him to let me keeping diddling his royalness. \m/

Also gdi i want this game to not crash.

ProfessorCirno
2011-02-18, 7:36 PM
Human nobles can't freeze people solid or light them on fire, so na.

Yes but they do get to have an interesting Origin.

Mage is better then Dalish Elf, and that's not saying much.

Nim
2011-02-18, 8:18 PM
Mage origin is fine, you crazy.

I kinda wonder if they'll be any mention of you being related to Hawke in DA2 if you load a final save with a human Mage Warden.

GeoGonzo
2011-02-22, 5:45 AM
Apparenty the Xbox360 demo is out.

Jay
2011-02-22, 6:19 AM
Yes but they do get to have an interesting Origin.

Mage is better then Dalish Elf, and that's not saying much.

Human noble origin is the most generic, cliche-ridden of the bunch. Your first mission is fighting fucking rats. They even make fun of this in game. Your family and starter area are destroyed (Noooo hometown, whyyyyy). You are betrayed by a jerky noble who acts as advisor to the Big Bad.

I enjoyed the human noble origin, but I knew what was going to happen by the end of it within a few seconds.

Killjoy
2011-02-22, 6:29 AM
Human noble origin is the most generic, cliche-ridden of the bunch. Your first mission is fighting fucking rats. They even make fun of this in game. Your family and starter area are destroyed (Noooo hometown, whyyyyy).
And yet it's still better than most of the other origins.

You are betrayed by a jerky noble who acts as advisor to the Big Bad.
Wait, what? Since when is Logain the Big Bad of the game?

Jay
2011-02-22, 6:30 AM
Fuck I forget his name. Uhh..How or something. He shows up and acts cool until your brother takes off, then sicks his troops on your castle. He is later seen giving advice to Loghain. On at least a couple of occasions.

Who I guess isn't the Big Bad (that's the Darkspawn durr) but he's still a big threat for most of the game!

Decius
2011-02-22, 6:35 AM
Fuck I forget his name. Uhh..How or something. He shows up and acts cool until your brother takes off, then sicks his troops on your castle. He is later seen giving advice to Loghain. On at least a couple of occasions.

Arl Howe?

Jay
2011-02-22, 6:36 AM
That's him!

Nim
2011-02-22, 9:37 AM
Wait, what? Since when is Logain the Big Bad of the game?

He more or less is. The darkspawn and archdemon don't really have much character. They're more like a natural disaster than an antagonist.

Killjoy
2011-02-22, 10:10 AM
He more or less is. The darkspawn and archdemon don't really have much character. They're more like a natural disaster than an antagonist.
That's a good point, and a valid angle on the story. I didn't view it from that angle personally; Logain was just a bump in the road, with my eye on the big picture of the arch-demon.

Edit: I also recruited Logain, and then commanded him to sacrifice himself to slay the arch-demon. I also married his daughter. It was a massive power-grab for me.

Decius
2011-02-22, 11:31 AM
http://dragonage.bioware.com/da2/demodownload/?download=true&language=en

For anyone who doesn't manage to access the demo-page itself, since Bioware apparently didn't expect people to actually want to see anything related to this game.

Nim
2011-02-22, 11:33 AM
It's like they wanted people to murder their servers.

"Hey guys, download the demo 1,000,000 times and we'll give you extra items in game! What could possibly go wrong?!"

Nim
2011-02-22, 12:32 PM
Gamershell (http://www.gamershell.com/download_70000.shtml) has some demo mirrors up if anyone gets sick of the 150kbps Bioware's server can manage at the moment.

Dataphiliac
2011-02-22, 12:52 PM
Wow even the link to the .torrent is hammered.

Nim
2011-02-22, 6:40 PM
Finished the demo.

The game mechanics are in line with DA: O, but feel more polished. Lots of ability usage in combat and lots of choices on level up. I like that each skill tree has it's own branches now rather than just being linear, so you can skip over powers you don't want. Nothing really feels dumbed down at all. It was way, way too easy on normal, which the demo is locked to, but hopefully Nightmare will be a challenge for people who want to be required to do more than auto attack.

The starting area looks awful. I really don't get why they chose a wasteland with sharp pointy rocks to be the first thing you see in the game, it's just ugly. On the bright side the bit you get to play inside Kirkwall proper looks pretty good, nice lighting and city scape.

Voice over seemed solid, although the male Hawke sounds like he's trying do a bad Sean Connery. The conversation system is more or less carried whole cloth from Mass Effect 2, but aside from that and the esc menu nothing else feels Mass Effectie. Overall I'm pleased enough to pre-order the full game.

Note: Get the demo on PC if you have the option, Console Demos have the "press A to attack" thing and they mean every attack. Auto-attack is disabled in the demo so on consoles you had to spam A inbetween using your specials to do any damage, on PC auto-attack is enabled by default.

Greatbob Umber
2011-02-22, 7:44 PM
Finished the demo, thoughts.

Thought #1 - I'm okay with some of the stylistic changes, thought the camera movement was disappointing and often difficult to mess with. Talent trees look legitimately interesting and worth delving into.

Concern #1 - Tactics. Didn't work that well! Characters didn't do what I wanted them to do some of the time, even if I switched to them and gave them orders, which is a real concern if the game has a difficulty level equivalent to the first. And I would guess that it does, based on the ogre encounter in the demo. And the tactics menu itself seems to be missing quite a lot of really useful options at the moment, and is a nightmare to try and finagle through at the moment. Something I will assume be worked on before launch.

Concern #2 - Is it necessarily a requirement that every female character in the game have taken every single option in the cleavage talent tree? Really? Really. I mean, I thought it was a little over-the-top, and that was BEFORE Isbaella entered. I'm just going to...to...trust Bioware that she has more personality than as a T&A option.

Not a day-one purchase for me. I will definitely get it, because it was fun, but I think I'll wait until a sale.

Greatbob Umber
2011-02-22, 7:47 PM
Also, downloaded the demo off of Steam, went fast.

Rampage
2011-02-22, 8:14 PM
Also, downloaded the demo off of Steam, went fast.

Doing so now. Seems to be going rather quick.

Kickflip Jones
2011-02-22, 8:21 PM
Mods, please change the thread title to "Dragon Age 2 looks so retarded". Thanks.

Kickflip Jones
2011-02-22, 8:25 PM
"So many games promise real choice but fail to deliver. Dragon Age 2 is the most impressive attempt I've seen to make the decisions players make in a game mean something," oh my goooooooood lol

"upwards of 50 hours to finish" lol

Yunara
2011-02-22, 8:28 PM
Finished the demo, thoughts.

Thought #1 - I'm okay with some of the stylistic changes, thought the camera movement was disappointing and often difficult to mess with. Talent trees look legitimately interesting and worth delving into.

Concern #1 - Tactics. Didn't work that well! Characters didn't do what I wanted them to do some of the time, even if I switched to them and gave them orders, which is a real concern if the game has a difficulty level equivalent to the first. And I would guess that it does, based on the ogre encounter in the demo. And the tactics menu itself seems to be missing quite a lot of really useful options at the moment, and is a nightmare to try and finagle through at the moment. Something I will assume be worked on before launch.

Concern #2 - Is it necessarily a requirement that every female character in the game have taken every single option in the cleavage talent tree? Really? Really. I mean, I thought it was a little over-the-top, and that was BEFORE Isbaella entered. I'm just going to...to...trust Bioware that she has more personality than as a T&A option.

Not a day-one purchase for me. I will definitely get it, because it was fun, but I think I'll wait until a sale.

Dragon Age 1. Everyone has bad teeth.

Dragon Age 2. Everyone has huge boobs.

UngorEatStefan
2011-02-22, 8:44 PM
Really enjoying the demo so far.

Jai
2011-02-22, 8:46 PM
I loved the demo!

MasterFidget
2011-02-22, 8:52 PM
Just played the demo. It was awesome. Also yay big boobs.

Jobrill
2011-02-22, 9:18 PM
Cassandra is my favorite. <3

Killjoy
2011-02-22, 10:06 PM
Naturally the demo crashes on me after completing the initial area. Naturally.

Zetwilder
2011-02-22, 10:07 PM
I enjoyed the demo. No expectations downloading it and I thoroughly enjoyed it. My only concern was that the dialogue wheel was boring. Otherwise, hooray for boobies.

Weirdo
2011-02-22, 10:29 PM
oh my goooooooood lol

I have in my hands the box from Neverwinter Nights 2, and in big orange letters across the top of the back read "EVERYTHING YOU DO HAS MEANING"

Let's just say, this has been said before and will be said again.

Dragon Age 2. Everyone has huge boobs.

Even the tiny elf girl, what the fu

DannoHung
2011-02-22, 10:36 PM
I tried the demo... uhh.. I dunno, maybe Rogue is not the class to play.

Maybe I should try again with warrior. That Darth Maul sword thing looks neat.

Kickflip Jones
2011-02-22, 11:28 PM
http://i55.tinypic.com/auifxs.jpg

Archangel3d
2011-02-22, 11:33 PM
Good thing you have a map, you might get lost in that linear corridor.

Kickflip Jones
2011-02-22, 11:34 PM
Hmm. Where's the next plot point. Oh. Here it is. It is marked on my map.

Nim
2011-02-22, 11:51 PM
I don't see a plot marker, I'm lost :(

Dataphiliac
2011-02-23, 12:08 AM
A few things:

1) It's really interesting that your class decision finally matters in cutscenes. They dabbled with this in the very last cutscene in Awakening and it's interesting that they've ported that to DA2. While it's only a cosmetic change it goes a long way in establishing the "your-choices-DO-matter" atmosphere so many of us are circlejerking about.

2) The dialog is pretty lol, and remains the weak point of BioWare's development. The voice actors do as well as any video game voice actors, but the delivery of both GuyHawke and FemHawke's lines leaves much to be desired. Aveline and Wesley were particularly bad. I don't know anything about the game but I know I will avoid putting Aveline in my party already. On the plus side, Flemeth was well done.

3) Tactics seem just as confusing and ineffective as they were in DA:O. The NPCs AI doesn't seem to have improved much. I don't know whether the Tactics system is an excuse to not implement a better AI ("it's a feature! Level your tactics skill!") or whether BioWare just still thinks it's a novel idea, but it doesn't work as expected even if it works as intended.

4) Combat feels more fast paced. Lower cooldowns contribute to this. I genuinely feel like when I smash a button it does something right away.

5) Talent trees is definitely a plus. I can imagine it lets you avoid getting absolutely useless skills like you had to do in DA:O. I'm fairly happy with the sampling and want to see how specialties are handled.

6) New camera and interface took a few minutes to get used to but I very quickly adapted and enjoy them. The new potion system seems like a great way to reduce inventory clutter. The new level up screen that shows you the effects of your points is also incredibly welcome. Dialog wheel is as nice as it was in ME2. I do not know whether or not we'll have the same cool interrupts though.

7) Bethany and Wesley dying was predictable. It was interesting that if you rolled a warrior or rogue, Carver died, while if you rolled a mage, Bethany died. I'm interested in the consequences this has down the line.

Other feelings will come as I think of them...

Decius
2011-02-23, 12:15 AM
The loading stuff gets on my nerves. Instead of loading 10 seconds more at the beginning, you get 1-2 seconds long loads in the middle of a "scene". Who thought that was a good idea? I guess with worse rigs than mine it's far longer too.

Also there are very weird and abrupt ends to camera pans and shots. I hoped they would have learned something about production values, scene setting and staging from their colleagues of the ME 2-team, but the demo does indicate otherwise.

Nim
2011-02-23, 12:24 AM
3) Tactics seem just as confusing and ineffective as they were in DA:O. The NPCs AI doesn't seem to have improved much. I don't know whether the Tactics system is an excuse to not implement a better AI ("it's a feature! Level your tactics skill!") or whether BioWare just still thinks it's a novel idea, but it doesn't work as expected even if it works as intended.


The tactics system works fine (did in DA: O too), it's just complex as fuck and takes a lot of work to get anything good out of it. I really like the option, but I can totally understand how someone who only wants to micro their main PC would find it daunting.

It'd be nice if there was a good default tactics setup for NPCs, but it would be pretty hard to create stuff for all the possible ability combination's the player might choose to employ.

Killjoy
2011-02-23, 6:27 AM
The loading stuff gets on my nerves. Instead of loading 10 seconds more at the beginning, you get 1-2 seconds long loads in the middle of a "scene". Who thought that was a good idea? I guess with worse rigs than mine it's far longer too.
According to the forum it's a known problem that's fixed in the gold version of the game.

Dax
2011-02-23, 10:31 AM
Demo? Sorry. I was distract by Felicia poking people with a dagger.

Sprint
2011-02-23, 11:17 AM
someone said something about boobs

Ten
2011-02-23, 1:53 PM
Thoughts from the 360 demo.

Good:

1) Combat is a lot quicker and actually feels fun as opposed to a chore. Cooldowns on abilities are much faster and it seems like there's less of a focus on sustained talents and buffs.

2) The graphical style is vastly improved. Characters look unique and the setting is a lot less drab and boring.

3) Talent trees are easy to use and it looks like you can go into a lot of depth making different builds.

4) Little changes like having healing potions automatically assigned to the front of the dial makes navigating the radial menu a lot easier.

5) Dialogue trees are ripped off of Mass Effect. This is definitely a good thing.

6) The framing narrative for the story seems compelling. I hope they do more with the idea of it being told by an unreliable narrator, though somehow I doubt it'll be as interesting as I hope.

7) Abilities are a lot of fun. Rogues flip and teleport around the battle field. Warriors rip apart crowds of enemies with single swings. You actually feel like quite the badass, even at lower levels.

8) Having a "smart ass" option in conversations is a good thing.

Bad:

1) The camera is a pain in the ass that constantly needs to be re-centered after you use abilities. Playing as a rogue is particularly bad as you're constantly teleporting behind enemies, requiring you to constantly fiddle with the camera angles.

2) Graphical style is better, but still not that great. Several characters just looked bland and while everyone might be talking about the giant tracts of land on female characters what struck me was the cold and dead eyes everyone seems to have. It's unsettling.

3) Voice acting is very rough and rather disappointing after the fantastic voices in ME2. FemHawke in particular will take a lot of getting used to. I'm hoping the voice acting is a bit more polished in the final version but I really don't have high hopes for it.

4) Ability movements and animations are a bit awkward at times. There's an inadvertent hilarity to targeting an enemy for a jumping lunge when they're behind a pillar and watching as Hawke jumps at them a good three or four times because you can't hit them.

5) HUD is terrible for the quick style of combat they've set up. Several times I had party members die during the demo just because I didn't notice that their tiny health bars were being drained.

ieya
2011-02-23, 3:16 PM
Naturally the demo crashes on me after completing the initial area. Naturally.

Yep, just had the same thing. Seems to be a "popular" bug, not very confidence building this close to launch!

edit: OK, if you turn off Vsync and antialiasing it doesn't crash, or at least it didn't for me. Hopefully there'll be an early patch to fix that...

Miles Standoffish
2011-02-23, 4:20 PM
demo owns, game is going to own, peace

Jobrill
2011-02-23, 4:28 PM
I have to admit, the demo's not perfect, but I've gone from thinking MAYBE I'll buy it when it's on sale, to being strongly tempted to preorder.

Ten
2011-02-23, 4:41 PM
Generally, I'm liking it and I'm sticking by my pre-order. It's not going to be a perfect game but I doubt I'll think it's a waste of money either.

Drascus
2011-02-23, 5:00 PM
Demo didn't make me want to play the game at all. Animations are bad, boobs are stupid, combat didn't feel very interesting. Only reason to play it would be the story, and I already got burned on that in DA: O.

Might buy it when it's super cheap on a steam sale.

Miles Standoffish
2011-02-23, 5:06 PM
Demo didn't make me want to play the game at all. Animations are bad, boobs are stupid, combat didn't feel very interesting. Only reason to play it would be the story, and I already got burned on that in DA: O.

Might buy it when it's super cheap on a steam sale.

--a man......with no taste.....

Yunara
2011-02-23, 5:06 PM
Another reason I'm rolling a mage. I don't want to be stuck with Bethany.

Miles Standoffish
2011-02-23, 5:08 PM
Another reason I'm rolling a mage. I don't want to be stuck with Bethany.

b.glad is going to be PISSED

Drascus
2011-02-23, 5:10 PM
--a man......with no taste.....

DA: o was a bad game. I tried really, really hard to like it, but it's just a bad game. Not going to have the same battered-spouse relationship with DA2.

I was bored and wondering when the demo was going to end when I realized I could just hit "Exit Game" and get on out of there.

Ten
2011-02-23, 5:11 PM
It's really comparing apples and cover based oranges but the combat I saw in the demo was more interesting and engaging then any I experienced in ME2.

And frankly, I think ME3 needs to steal DA2's spell placement stuff for biotics. But that's just a personal opinion. I'm sure plenty of people will disagree.

Miles Standoffish
2011-02-23, 5:13 PM
DA: o was a bad game. .

a widely held opinion

Drascus
2011-02-23, 5:16 PM
ME2's combat is not amazing by any stretch of the imagination. I mean, it was smooth and polished as fuck, but not super super interesting. But at least it was smooth! And the story was great, as was ME1's story. Very different types of stories, but either way, good.

That DA2 demo was right back to the goddamn deep roads. Endless waves of darkspawn, only this time there's just one kind, instead of 2-4 kinds. And you're stuck in a boring brown on-rails landscape. And the combat isn't very smooth at all. Camera is all over the fucking place, abilities have really long cooldowns, at least for a warrior, so most of the time I'm actually not doing anything, just watching Hawke thrash at a darkspawn.

Put me right to sleep, and I have no confidence in the DA team storywise, so while I could forgive all that stuff and just power through it to get to the story in another game, I won't be risking $60 or whatever the price is on DA2.

Kickflip Jones
2011-02-23, 5:16 PM
demo owns, game is going to own, peacenice fakepost

Ten
2011-02-23, 5:22 PM
That DA2 demo was right back to the goddamn deep roads. Endless waves of darkspawn, only this time there's just one kind, instead of 2-4 kinds. And you're stuck in a boring brown on-rails landscape.

There are several different types of darkspawn even in that single part. Even ignoring the Ogres as just mini-bosses and not counting them, I counted at least four different types of darkspawn enemies during the demo.

Not to mention the part of the demo where you're in Kirkwall fighting the raiders.

abilities have really long cooldowns, at least for a warrior

Seriously. Did you download the wrong demo by accident?

GeoGonzo
2011-02-23, 5:27 PM
Demo didn't make me want to play the game at all. Animations are bad, boobs are stupid, combat didn't feel very interesting. Only reason to play it would be the story, and I already got burned on that in DA: O.

Might buy it when it's super cheap on a steam sale.

This, except that I liked DA: O. I'm disappointed, because for some reason I was expecting this game to surprise me like the first one did (by not being terrible).

Kickflip Jones
2011-02-23, 5:31 PM
Dragon's Age 2 is making me embarrassed that I ever liked 1. And I didn't even like 1 that much.

Drascus
2011-02-23, 5:32 PM
There are several different types of darkspawn even in that single part. Even ignoring the Ogres as just mini-bosses and not counting them, I counted at least four different types of darkspawn enemies during the demo.

Not to mention the part of the demo where you're in Kirkwall fighting the raiders.

They all look the same. Yes, they have different names, and different size healthbars, oh, and I guess the ones with bows have bows? And I guess there was the mage miniboss and the ogre miniboss. I quit at the first ogre miniboss, didn't see anything past that. Demo didn't hold my interest. It's an advertisement for the game, so the onus is on the demo to hold my interest, I have invested no money yet. If the Demo is any indication of the quality of the game, I won't be investing any for a while, if ever.



Seriously. Did you download the wrong demo by accident?

No? I mean, the whole thing felt like a single player MMO. Only I'd use each of my abilities, and then just sit there and wait for a while, as Hawke flailed at a darkspawn. And then the abilities would be up again, and they wouldn't do much, and then they'd all be on cooldown again and my only choice was auto-attack.

At least in ME2 I could aim on my own, pull the trigger each time I wanted to, had tons of abilities to use, and they all had pretty reasonable cooldowns. I was always DOING something, even if it was just taking cover, aiming, and shooting. At least I was always engaged.

And all the little "loading" blips? Ugh, so annoying. Over the course of a 50 hour game or whatever, that would drive me mad to constantly have stuff interrupted by a little freeze.